Posted on 07/26/2002 11:29:06 AM PDT by HairOfTheDog
Welcome to The Green Dragon Inn
This is a chapter discussion of The Two Towers, volume two of the Lord of the Rings. It is a continuation of our discussion of Lord of the Rings that started with Fellowship of the Ring and finished a few weeks back. FoTR discussion thread.
We will cover one section of the book per week. Sometimes short, related chapters may be combined, and the process may evolve as we go to keep everybody happy! If you are joining late, jump right in, but please stick to the chapter currently being discussed. We should be a bit careful with topic and spoilers (especially if we are joined by some reading for the first time) but feel free to draw lines related to other events in the story. If you do misbehave too much you will be sent to Took's Corner. As always, if you want to chit-chat or share other news… I would probably be best to post that in The Hobbit Hole thread.
It is OK this time to share images from the Two Towers (that illustrate the current chapter of course!) They are fun snapshots that show our story coming to life. Use your head, we don't want to slow down the thread too much, but most of us love a few pics in the thread.
Every week I will ping you to the new chapter or section …. Let me know if you would like to be on - or off - this list. I will serve as the Thain of the list.
So lets read, listen and become inspired by the many aspects of The Lord of the Rings that touch us deeply and reconnect us to the values we aspire to. Many great discussions have already been had, and I hope that this thread will produce even more. Many FReepers have wonderful things to say about LoTR, whether the fantasy reconnects them with their faith, with their relationships with friends and family, or simply illustrates the splendor of great acts of heroism and sacrifice in the constant battle of virtue versus corruption.
Besides, we Tolkien fans need something to keep us busy while we wait for the film to come out December 19. This thread will adjust the schedule as necessary to be finished before the film comes out!
I have no idea where the notion that Elrond was not convinced of having Frodo as Ringbearer. The only part I agree with you on is that he didn't want to send Merry and Pippen. However, to me, this merely showed that Gandalf had deeper insight than Elrond, not that everyone was fallible.
If Gandalf, or Elrond or Galadriel, for that matter, were on hand right now, I'm sure they would be the first to tell you that they were *not* infallible. If you considered them to be so, that is *your* mistake, not theirs. I think Tolkien shows repeatedly that the wisdom of the Wise was limited, and has the Wise say so on several occassions.
Tuor
The only reason I used the term "luck" was because I was struck by the reference in The Hobbit that Hobbits were "an unusually lucky breed" in combination with the different times that Bilbo was called "an exceptionally lucky" Hobbit by different characters (including Thorin and Gandalf).
But this is art, and I think that on points like these, there is freedom for personal interpretation. I think that your interpretation is as legitimate as any.
Perhaps I am mistaken, but these are fictional characters we are talking about here. And I did state that Tolkien showed many times the falibility of his "Wise ones". Yet, there is also the aspect of super-hero about these characters, and the reader (this one anyway) is drawn to trust implicitly that these characters know the end from the beginning. And that they will find a way to make everything right in the end.
And I think that this is an excellent ploy on the part of Tolkien, who has no such intention at all -- yet knows that such characters, because of their great powers, will be read in that way.
Oh, okay. I didn't remember that from The Hobbit. Guess I need to go read it again. I was thinking about what Gandalf said about Bilbo "was meant" to find the Ring and Frodo "was meant" to have it. Why not Merry and Pippin "were meant" to go with the Fellowship?
"Do you think there is no such thing as coincidence?"
In our conversation here, I think that my use of "luck" and yours of pre-destination are perhaps the exact same thing. I expect it was most certainly meant to be -- and isn't that lucky!
OK, I'll stop now...
Spoilers below.
They obviously were. Wisdom lies in realizing such 'meants'. The W-k wouldn't have been slain if Merry hadn't been there. Faramir would've died if it weren't for Pippin's actions.
Tuor
Okay, Okay, you got me??.. what's W-k? and Oops, forgot ... what'd Pippin do for Faramir?
hehehehe - Tuor is speaking of (highlight to read) Merry and Eowyn slaying the Witch-King - Lord of the Nazgul and Pippin saving Faramir when Denethor went nuts, which we don't know about yet!
Tuor the Innocent Spoiler
Green Dragon Ping!
Hullo friends! … Welcome to the Green Dragon!
The Two Towers
Topic for the week:
Chapter 4: Treebeard
Meanwhile the hobbits went with as much speed as the dark and tangled forest allowed, following the line of the running stream, westward and up towards the slopes of the mountains, deeper and deeper into Fangorn. Slowly their fear of the Orcs died away, and their pace slackened. A queer stifling feeling came over them, as if the air were too thin or too scanty for breathing.At last Merry halted. 'We can't go on like this,' he panted. 'I want some air.'
'Let's have a drink at any rate,' said Pippin. 'I'm parched.' He clambered on to a great tree-root that wound down into the stream, and stooping drew up some water in his cupped hands. It was clear and cold, and he took many draughts. Merry followed him. The water refreshed them and seemed to cheer their hearts; for a while they sat together on the brink of the stream, dabbling their sore feet and legs, and peering round at the trees that stood silently about them, rank upon rank, until they faded away into grey twilight in every direction.
Fangorn Forest by Alan Lee
Two hobbits in lowish left-hand side 'I suppose you haven't lost us already?' said Pippin, leaning back against a great tree-trunk. 'We can at least follow the course of this stream, the Entwash or whatever you call it, and get out again the way we came.'
'We could, if our legs would do it,' said Merry; 'and if we could breathe properly.'
'Yes, it is all very dim, and stuffy, in here,' said Pippin. 'It reminds me, somehow, of the old room in the Great Place of the Tooks away back in the Smials at Tuckborough: a huge place, where the furniture has never been moved or changed for generations. They say the Old Took lived in it year after year, while he and the room got older and shabbier together-and it has never changed since he died, a century ago. And Old Gerontius was my great-great-grandfather: that puts it back a bit. But that is nothing to the old feeling of this wood. Look at all those weeping, trailing, beards and whiskers of lichen! And most of the trees seem to be half covered with ragged dry leaves that have never fallen. Untidy. I can't imagine what spring would look like here, if it ever comes; still less a spring-cleaning.'
Forest near Mt. Owen, New Zealand, Fangorn film location 'But the Sun at any rate must peep in sometimes.' said Merry. 'It does not look or feel at all like Bilbo's description of Mirkwood. That was all dark and black, and the home of dark black things. This is just dim, and frightfully tree-ish. You can't imagine animals living here at all, or staying for long.'…
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ …They climbed and scrambled up the rock. If the stair had been made it was for bigger feet and longer legs than theirs. They were too eager to be surprised at the remarkable way in which the cuts and sores of their captivity had healed and their vigour had returned. They came at length to the edge of the shelf almost at the feet of the old stump; then they sprang up and turned round with their backs to the hill, breathing deep, and looking out eastward. They saw that they had only come some three or four miles into the forest: the heads of the trees marched down the slopes towards the plain. There, near the fringe of the forest, tall spires of curling black smoke went up, wavering and floating towards them.
'The wind's changing,' said Merry. 'It's turned east again. It feels cool up here.'
'Yes,' said Pippin; 'I'm afraid this is only a passing gleam, and it will all go grey again. What a pity! This shaggy old forest looked so different in the sunlight. I almost felt I liked the place.'
'Almost felt you liked the Forest! That's good! That's uncommonly kind of you,' said a strange voice. 'Turn round and let me have a look at your faces. I almost feel that I dislike you both, but do not let us be hasty. Turn round!' A large knob-knuckled hand was laid on each of their shoulders, and they were twisted round, gently but irresistibly; then two great arms lifted them up.
They found that they were looking at a most extraordinary face. It belonged to a large Man-like, almost Troll-like, figure, at least fourteen foot high, very sturdy, with a tall head, and hardly any neck. Whether it was clad in stuff like green and grey bark, or whether that was its hide, was difficult to say. At any rate the arms, at a short distance from the trunk, were not wrinkled, but covered with a brown smooth skin. The large feet had seven toes each. The lower part of the long face was covered with a sweeping grey beard, bushy, almost twiggy at the roots, thin and mossy at the ends. But at the moment the hobbits noted little but the eyes. These deep eyes were now surveying them, slow and solemn, but very penetrating. They were brown, shot with a green light. Often afterwards Pippin tried to describe his first impression of them.
'One felt as if there was an enormous well behind them, filled up with ages of memory and long, slow, steady thinking; but their surface was sparkling with the present: like sun shimmering on the outer leaves of a vast tree, or on the ripples of a very deep lake. I don't know but it felt as if something that grew in the ground-asleep, you might say, or just feeling itself as something between roof-tip and leaf-tip, between deep earth and sky had suddenly waked up, and was considering you with the same slow care that it had given to its own inside affairs for endless years.'
'Hrum, Hoom,' murmured the voice, a deep voice like a very deep woodwind instrument. 'Very odd indeed! Do not be hasty, that is my motto. But if I had seen you, before I heard your voices – I liked them: nice little voices; they reminded me of something I cannot remember – if I had seen you before I heard you, I should have just trodden on you, taking you for little Orcs, and found out my mistake afterwards. Very odd you are, indeed. Root and twig, very odd!'
Pippin, though still amazed, no longer felt afraid. Under those eyes he felt a curious suspense, but not fear. 'Please.' he said, 'who are you? And what are you?'
A queer look came into the old eyes, a kind of wariness; the deep wells were covered over. 'Hrum, now,' answered the voice; 'well, I am an Ent, or that's what they call me. Yes, Ent is the word. The Ent, I am, you might say, in your manner of speaking. Fangorn is my name according to some, Treebeard others make it. Treebeard will do.'
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Special treat: JRR Tolkien reading from the story… audio files! Click the links below and listen! Short segments read by the author. (Depending on your browser/player for mp3's you may want to right-click and select "open in new window" so you can click back here and read along. I included the text that is being read wherever it was hard to understand otherwise.)
'An Ent?' said Merry. 'What's that? But what do you call yourself? What's your real name?'… (continued)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Treebeard fell silent, striding along, and yet making hardly a sound with his great feet. Then he began to hum again, and passed into a murmuring chant. Gradually the hobbits became aware that he was chanting to them:
In the willow-meads of Tasarinan I walked in the Spring.
Ah! the sight and the smell of the Spring in Nan-tasarion!
And I said that was good.
I wandered in Summer in the elm-woods of Ossiriand.
Ah! the light and the music in the Summer by the Seven Rivers of Ossir!
And I thought that was best.
To the beeches of Neldoreth I came in the Autumn.
Ah! the gold and the red and the sighing of leaves in the Autumn in Taur-na-neldor!
It was more than my desire.
To the pine-trees upon the highland of Dorthonion I climbed in the Winter.
Ah! the wind and the whiteness and the black branches of Winter upon Orod-na-Thôn!
My voice went up and sang in the sky.
And now all those lands lie under the wave.
And I walk in Ambaróna, in Tauremorna, in Aldalómë.
In my own land, in the country of Fangorn,
Where the roots are long,
And the years lie thicker than the leaves
In Tauremornalómë.He ended, and strode on silently, and in all the wood, as far as ear could reach, there was not a sound.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Song for the Entwives: 'There was an Elvish song that spoke of this, or at least so I understand it. It used to be sung up and down the Great River. It was never an Entish song, mark you: it would have been a very long song in Entish! But we know it by heart, and hum it now and again. This is how it runs in your tongue…
ENT
When Spring unfolds the beechen leaf, and sap is in the bough;
When light is on the wild-wood stream, and wind is on the brow;
When stride is long, and breath is deep, and keen the mountain-air,
Come back to me! Come back to me, and say my land is fair!ENTWIFE.
When Spring is come to garth and field, and corn is in the blade;
When blossom like a shining snow is on the orchard laid;
When shower and Sun upon the Earth with fragrance fill the air,
I'll linger here, and will not come, because my land is fair.ENT.
When Summer lies upon the world, and in a noon of gold
Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold;
When woodland halls are green and cool, and wind is in the West,
Come back to me! Come back to me, and say my land is best!ENTWIFE.
When Summer warms the hanging fruit and burns the berry brown;
When straw is gold, and ear is white, and harvest comes to town;
When honey spills, and apple swells, though wind be in the West,
I'll linger here beneath the Sun, because my land is best!ENT.
When Winter comes, the winter wild that hill and wood shall slay;
When trees shall fall and starless night devour the sunless day;
When wind is in the deadly East, then in the bitter rain
I'll look for thee, and call to thee; I'll come to thee again!ENTWIFE.
When Winter comes, and singing ends; when darkness falls at last;
When broken is the barren bough, and light and labour past;
I'll look for thee, and wait for thee, until we meet again:
Together we will take the road beneath the bitter rain!BOTH.
Together we will take the road that leads into the West,
And far away will find a land where both our hearts may rest.'Treebeard ended his song. 'That is how it goes,' he said. 'It is Elvish, of course: lighthearted, quickworded, and soon over. I daresay it is fair enough. But the Ents could say more on their side, if they had time! But now I am going to stand up and take a little sleep. Where will you stand?'…
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Then orcs came with axes and cut down my trees. I came and called them by their long names, but they did not quiver, they did not hear or answer: they lay dead.
O Orofarnë, Lassemista, Carnimírië!
O rowan fair, upon your hair how white the blossom lay!
O rowan mine, I saw you shine upon a summer's day,
Your rind so bright, your leaves so light, your voice so cool and soft:
Upon your head how golden-red the crown you bore aloft!
O rowan dead, upon your head your hair is dry and grey;
Your crown is spilled, your voice is stilled for ever and a day.
O Orofarnë, Lassemista, Carnimírië!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And finally this one, which is particularly wonderful! Listen to him ra-hoom!
Then with a crash came a great ringing shout: ra-hoom-rah! The trees quivered and bent as if a gust had struck them. There was another pause, and then a marching music began like solemn drums, and above the rolling beats and booms there welled voices singing high and strong.We come, we come with roll of drum: ta-runda runda runda rom!
The Ents were coming: ever nearer and louder rose their song:
We come, we come with horn and drum: ta-runa runa runa rom!
Bregalad picked up the hobbits and strode from his house.
Before long they saw the marching line approaching: the Ents were swinging along with great strides down the slope towards them. Treebeard was at their head, and some fifty followers were behind him, two abreast, keeping step with their feet and beating time with their hands upon their flanks. As they drew near the flash and flicker of their eyes could be seen.
'Hoom, hom! Here we come with a boom, here we come at last!' called Treebeard when he caught sight of Bregalad and the hobbits. 'Come, join the Moot! We are off. We are off to Isengard!'
'To Isengard!' the Ents cried in many voices.
'To Isengard!'
To Isengard! Though Isengard be ringed and barred with doors of stone;
Though Isengard be strong and hard, as cold as stone and bare as bone,
We go, we go, we go to war, to hew the stone and break the door;
For bole and bough are burning now, the furnace roars – we go to war!
To land of gloom with tramp of doom, with roll of drum, we come, we come;
To Isengard with doom we come!
With doom we come, with doom we come!So they sang as they marched southwards.
OK! Hullo – Good Morning! Whew! That was a long chapter post! Hope you enjoy the extra treat of the audio files… I have been waiting for us to reach the chapter where those readings occur! – There are a few more available later on in our story, and I will be sure to include them when we get there…
Treebeard is one of those characters that has been drawn many times, never fitting the image that is in my mind… I searched and considered pictures and paintings of him to include in this post, and there are many versions, from the Brothers Hildebrandt, whose Treebeard I grew up with on my wall, to John Howe, to Alan Lee, to silly things! Do a Google-Image search on Treebeard or Fangorn for a fraction of the wacky images that are out there.
Many have tried to draw Treebeard. We know that John Howe and Alan Lee are both working on the film, so the Treebeard who comes to life for us in December may resemble one of their interpretations. So far the movie images of Treebeard and the Ents have been a closely held secret… We were allowed only a brief 3 second peek at him in the preview that ran in March at the end of the FoTR… and it was subtle. In the picture below we have Pippin of course, clinging to what appears to be a tree. Visible, but hard to see until it blinks, is a hint at what Treebeard will look like, for the tree that Pippin is clinging to has eyes, and our hobbit friend appears to be holding him by the nose. I apologize that it is hard to see… I have found no bigger images to choose from that will post!
So here we are! Here is our Map of where we are So we don't get lost! Hullo – Good Morning!
Chapter 1 and 2: The Departure of Boromir and The Riders of Rohan (Post #2)
Chapter 2 mid week bumper: The Riders of Rohan (Post #122)
Chapter 3: The Uruk-Hai (Post #195)
Chapter 3 Monday bumper: The Uruk-Hai continued (Post #293)
Very Neat!
Bad on me, I can't keep Merry and Pippin's activities straight, need constant reminding.
Don'tcha just love this guys?! Just escaped from Orc captivity, and a simple drink of water "cheers their hearts", and...not knowing that the Orcs are not pursuing them, they dangle their feet. They really do typify the adage: 'the best things in life are free'. But it is probably also true that their simple, non-threatening actions and conversation were the things that piqued Treebeard's curiosity and lack of agression.
Well, onward into Fanghorn.
PS. did anyone else cry a bit in FotR when Saruman's Orcs were felling trees, and you heard their cries?
We didn't cry, but my daughter was wondering if some of those deep noises may have been Treebeard mourning over the loss of some of his "herd."
There is no account of it, unfortunately. I believe Tolkien was asked about this in one of his Letters, and he, IIRC, said that they wont be reunited until the End. I have always felt that the 'walking tree' that Sam's cousin (or was it uncle) saw in the North Farthing of the Shire was, in fact, an Ent-wife, but it is never expressly stated and Tolkien intentionally leaves the matter open, possibly to exlemplify the idea that as big as the War of the Ring was, there were still matters outside it which were little affected by it.
Tuor
Why not Merry and Pippin "were meant" to go with the Fellowship?
Ok, here's MY theory and far be it from me to put thoughts into Tolkien's head about the subject, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that this theory was floating somewhere in the background of his plan...
First, Merry (for me at any rate) is a tough one to figure out, except that I think Jackson did an extremely good job evaluating his character as a 'planner' and watcher. It makes perfect sense for a Brandybuck. But Pippin became even harder to decipher, until I read a review somewhere that hinted that Pippin was Gandalf's new project...which got me to thinking...and then I reread ROTK where there are references to Pippin being called "the Prince of Halflings"...and in chronologies, he is named son of the Thain...and a thain in feudal times was "a member of several classes of men ranking between earls and ordinary free men, and holding lands of the king or lord by military service." Or in Scottish History "the chief of a clan who became one of the king's barons." (which makes Jackson that much more brilliant in my eyes for giving the part of Pippin to a Scotsman!)"
So I am thinking that despite Elrond's objections to Pippin's inclusion in the Nine Walkers because of youth and inexperience, Gandalf was familiar with Pippin's heritage and how it might be connected with Aragorn's ascendancy to the throne, a kingship that would need connection back in the Shire. And that the term 'Prince of the Halflings' wasn't so far off the mark.
So was it Divine Providence, or just sheer Tookish moxy that made him stand up to Denethor and swear fealty to the Steward of Gondor??
From the book quote: 'I suppose you haven't lost us already?' said Pippin, leaning back against a great tree-trunk.
LOL LOL!! What a sly sense of humor. Whenever I read about Fanghorn and Treebeard, I can't help be remember all the stuff with the Old Forest and the Willow..and how Merry was supposed to be the one to know how to get through it...and yet they got hopelessly lost. I get the feeling this would be something that Pippin would not let Merry live down.
As a side note, Empire Strikes Back came out not too long after I had become very familiar with LOTR, and the scene where Luke is in the swamp had me thrilling on more levels than one.
Luke: "I dunno. I feel like..."
Yoda: "Feel like what?" Luke: (spinning around with blaster aimed): "Like we're being watched"
I had SO hoped it was an Ent. Lucas went the opposite direction with that, however, didn't he????
Here's a pic that may be the hobbits when they encounter Treebeard.
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