Posted on 07/26/2002 11:29:06 AM PDT by HairOfTheDog
Welcome to The Green Dragon Inn
This is a chapter discussion of The Two Towers, volume two of the Lord of the Rings. It is a continuation of our discussion of Lord of the Rings that started with Fellowship of the Ring and finished a few weeks back. FoTR discussion thread.
We will cover one section of the book per week. Sometimes short, related chapters may be combined, and the process may evolve as we go to keep everybody happy! If you are joining late, jump right in, but please stick to the chapter currently being discussed. We should be a bit careful with topic and spoilers (especially if we are joined by some reading for the first time) but feel free to draw lines related to other events in the story. If you do misbehave too much you will be sent to Took's Corner. As always, if you want to chit-chat or share other news… I would probably be best to post that in The Hobbit Hole thread.
It is OK this time to share images from the Two Towers (that illustrate the current chapter of course!) They are fun snapshots that show our story coming to life. Use your head, we don't want to slow down the thread too much, but most of us love a few pics in the thread.
Every week I will ping you to the new chapter or section …. Let me know if you would like to be on - or off - this list. I will serve as the Thain of the list.
So lets read, listen and become inspired by the many aspects of The Lord of the Rings that touch us deeply and reconnect us to the values we aspire to. Many great discussions have already been had, and I hope that this thread will produce even more. Many FReepers have wonderful things to say about LoTR, whether the fantasy reconnects them with their faith, with their relationships with friends and family, or simply illustrates the splendor of great acts of heroism and sacrifice in the constant battle of virtue versus corruption.
Besides, we Tolkien fans need something to keep us busy while we wait for the film to come out December 19. This thread will adjust the schedule as necessary to be finished before the film comes out!
I should avoid making comments on the pictures altogether, really. I'll try to do so in the future.
Tuor
Amen. We are afflicted by small minds, perhaps made smaller by too many strange substances. They use the 60's filter because that is as far as their minds can travel. It's convenient, easy and hip.
We are dealing with actors here after all -- not great linguists, philosophers or scientists. We're looking at the far left side of the IQ bell curve. Just because they can present and reflect great (or lesser) literature from script (with direction) doesn't mean they have the slightest clue about the depth of meaning of the source.
No one has ever been drummed out of the Actor's union for lack of intelligence. Just look at their lifestyles, that'll tell you about all you need to know.
So is the Special Edition of FotR coming out at a later date (...and if so why would I run out and buy this one, when I could just rent it and buy the good one later, methinks, methinks...)?
This may seem obvious by this point, but this is something that has impacted everything that went before this: The enemy(s) and at least some of their Orc captains have been alerted from the very start that Hobbits are carrying the Ring. This is the great importance of there being a number of Hobbits in the Fellowship.
Remember at Rivendell, when there was quite the council about who should be Ring-bearer and who should accompany the bearer? Even when Frodo offered to bear the Ring, there was a great deal of skepticism about that and especially about Merry and Pippin joining the Fellowship. Elrond wanted them to go back home, if I'm remembering correctly.
Given the need for deception, how critical it was that there were a number of Hobbits in the Fellowship. It was capturing these two (Merry and Pippin) that drew the Orcs away from Emyn Muil - and off the tail of the true Ring Bearer.
Uh oh...am I in trouble now?!?! My apologies, I did not intend to sound harsh or flammatory; and it's not an issue of immense concern to me that I feel the need to delve further. I know they are young, I know they are part of a hip crowd, and I know they were just entertaining the audience. It just seemed an incongruous statement from someone who by all intents and purposes *did* know the story very well, and summed it up by saying "it was all the 'shrooms', man!" I guess it's still cute to joke about hallucinations.
I guess it hit a nerve because I heard so many of my fellow anthro students say the same thing about all the 'great' stories..."they took some heavy duty drugs, man, that's why they came up with those things." And there I was, as drug free as all get out and I could be just as imaginative and wild in my concepts of fantasy stories WITHOUT the drugs. I had an anthro friend of mine tell me that they only way we could understand a culture was by taking drugs...and my response was, well then what the hell was I needing all those damn books for? And why should I even try to understand if I am not on some kind of drug induced high? It was EXTREMELY faulty logic to me.
I am sorry if I offended, though. Dom did a very nice job as Merry, and I don't doubt that they love the story as much if not more than the fans. After having gone through all that they did to produce the story, how much of the love can you NOT express???
best,
Alkhin
I hadn't thought of that, specifically, but I think you're right.
They didn't exactly seem to be great at subtlety, did they?
Thanks.
I've read the books so many times that another reading is almost a deja vu type experience.
Although now that I've seen the movie 10 times or so, the movie story had invaded my mental picture of the plot and I keep tripping over differences between the two tales during reading. Odd experience.
A common occurence when Tooks are involved. ;^)
I thought the same thing...given the enemies limited knowledge of hobbits and the fact that a lone hobbit would have been a clear target, I thought it wise to have the others along...even if they were just cannon fodder...
If you are like me, as you read LOTR you get lulled into belief that great figures such as Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf are the repository of all knowledge, including fore-knowledge and that this knowledge is perfect. The heroism of these figures is so pronounced, and their wisdom so refined, that we are "tricked" by the author into believing that they are perfect -- and cannot be wrong!
Yet here is an example, even a proof, that such is not the case. Certainly, Elrond was not convinced of Frodo as Ring Bearer, was ambivalent toward Sam, and quite hesitant, if not opposed, to Merry and Pippin joining the Fellowship.
Gandalf, for his part, was less than enthusiastic about four Hobbits in the Fellowship.
Yet four was the absolutely necessary number. No fewer would have sufficed.
Tolkien demonstrates the imperfection of his "great" characters -- even Galadriel in the presence of the One Ring. Yet still we want to believe in their infalibilty.
Tolkien appeared to a fan of luck. He points out over and over how being lucky can overcome many bad situations, whereas the best planning may fail. While we are believing that the "Great" characters -- Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel, etc. -- are guiding all with their perfect knowledge, Tolkien is winking at us, and pulling the "fat out of the fire" with the thanks in many cases going to the Hobbit's good luck.
I prefer to think of Tolkien as a fan of Divine Providence rather than luck.
A thought about hobbits (and Tooks in particular) and orcs. Has anyone noticed that whenever the orcs start arguing they bring up "who's in charge", "orders are orders", "I'll report you", etc.? So...ignore the "rools" and free your inner Took!
I agree that Tolkien gives us marvelous characters that have flaws, however, what I see as his greatest gift is letting us see the "free will" that is exercised in either succombing or over-coming temptation. Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel, Aragorn all rejected the offered ring, and of course Boromir, well, we've done Boromir to death. I think we error if we don't appreciate that the 'over-commers' really did Over Come.
I've always marvelled at how God can sit by and watch us exercise our free will, must take monumental patience....But, at least, with the free peoples in these books, they do have to exercise their free will, and stand or fall with their choices.
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