Posted on 07/26/2002 11:29:06 AM PDT by HairOfTheDog
Welcome to The Green Dragon Inn
This is a chapter discussion of The Two Towers, volume two of the Lord of the Rings. It is a continuation of our discussion of Lord of the Rings that started with Fellowship of the Ring and finished a few weeks back. FoTR discussion thread.
We will cover one section of the book per week. Sometimes short, related chapters may be combined, and the process may evolve as we go to keep everybody happy! If you are joining late, jump right in, but please stick to the chapter currently being discussed. We should be a bit careful with topic and spoilers (especially if we are joined by some reading for the first time) but feel free to draw lines related to other events in the story. If you do misbehave too much you will be sent to Took's Corner. As always, if you want to chit-chat or share other news… I would probably be best to post that in The Hobbit Hole thread.
It is OK this time to share images from the Two Towers (that illustrate the current chapter of course!) They are fun snapshots that show our story coming to life. Use your head, we don't want to slow down the thread too much, but most of us love a few pics in the thread.
Every week I will ping you to the new chapter or section …. Let me know if you would like to be on - or off - this list. I will serve as the Thain of the list.
So lets read, listen and become inspired by the many aspects of The Lord of the Rings that touch us deeply and reconnect us to the values we aspire to. Many great discussions have already been had, and I hope that this thread will produce even more. Many FReepers have wonderful things to say about LoTR, whether the fantasy reconnects them with their faith, with their relationships with friends and family, or simply illustrates the splendor of great acts of heroism and sacrifice in the constant battle of virtue versus corruption.
Besides, we Tolkien fans need something to keep us busy while we wait for the film to come out December 19. This thread will adjust the schedule as necessary to be finished before the film comes out!
No, but you are a really Great Moderator!
Thanks for all you do.
Maybe we're melding the movie with the books again. That's it, I won't poison my mind with anymore of those false images from that spawn Peter Jackson.
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Yeah, right. ;^)
That and the mental picture he had before of Strider running behind.....do you think Pippin might be psychic?
I'm way behind on reading this thread, but wanted to say (if it's all right to allude to things to come) I noticed on reading TTT again that, later, Frodo also doubts his decisions when faced with the preliminary results.
According to Tolkien's letters in one of the more obscure collections, the Numenoreans reached a cultural height shortly before their fall that compared favorably with that of the Elves in Aman or at least Beleriand. I think this was intended to show that the two kindreds of the Children of Iluvatar were "equal" in potential in all ways, and the comparatively lesser achievements of Men were primarily the result of their far shorter lifespan.
I think it is interesting that the Valar themselves felt threatened enough by the invading Numenoreans that they felt impelled to call upon Iluvatar himself.
There are two possible explanations for this. One is that the Numenoreans had the military capability to actually defeat the Valar in battle. This seems unlikely, but is given credence by a reference somewhere (don't have the books with me on the road) to the Numenorean invasion fleet as being the greatest that ever sailed. Presumably this would include the fleet in which the Host of the West sailed from Aman to defeat Melkor at the end of the First Age.
The other, and probably more likely, explanation is that the Valar were capable of defeating the Numenoreans, but not without massive slaughter of them, and they were unwilling to kill that many of the Children of Iluvatar.
All this is also interesting because some of those (mostly fundamentalists)who want to draw a strong contrast between the treatment of magic in Harry Potter and Tolkien like to say that Men in Middle Earth don't use magic. Obviously, powerful magic would have had to be used by the Numenoreans in order for them to face either Sauron or the Valar in battle.
you know, we discussed this over at the imladris thread...I'm more inclined to believe that Pippin has an extra dollop of intuition that picks up clues from who or what around him. I don't know if that is called psychic or just plain clever, but I have had moments like that myself, where reality breaks through inward thinking.
...or it could be that the Tooks were blessed with faery blood, as Tolkien makes some passing reference to in 'The Hobbit', giving him the root from which he can sense beyond whats going on behind him.
There is an substory going on with Pippin and Merry, beyond the obvious that has intrigued me since I read TTT. I half wonder if Tolkien didn't consider going further into a story with him. But then I also read somewhere that Tolkien had also considered having Pippin 'killed off' in some noble or heroic deed. I am very glad he didn't.
Going off topic here, I am just wondering if I am the only one who is bothered by the general interpretation that the actors/directors/promoters have about Tolkien's work...I just read up on the report on TORN about Dom's take on a certain Treebeard scene...he makes a comment wondering if Tolkien wasn't on some kind of 'mushrooms' when he wrote about the hobbits drinking with the Ent. Why is it that something creative and wild like that has to involve mushrooms or drugs or some stupid hippie concept????
I am getting BEYOND tired of everything meaning in this world being filtered through the 60s Hippie World View. Didn't we leave the 60s and 70s behind years ago...like in the 80s?????????????????
Actually, there's a reference somewhere to certain goblins as being "great orcs of the mountains." But I couldn't say where!
Also, a preview of the special edition confirms that some of the new scenes will include Gimli falling for Galadriel and the recieving of the gifts in Lothlorien.
He needs all the clues he can get! Sorry, I couldn't resist. :)
I'm glad CS Lewis aka "the Hobbit Hater" didn't talk him into killing Pip.
Tells you far more about the "speaker" than anything. As folks move away from an unmoveable "standard" and just 'decide for themselves' what things mean, they get further and further from truth. More shallow, and immediate lacking any real texture or content.
Too bad this scene was entirely fabricated. The Orcs were all gathered up and burned. The very few Rohirrim who died were buried (with their horses IIRC). 15 Rohirrim died and 12 Horses. That is why the Three Hunters dispaired of finding clear signs of Merry and Pippen, thinking their bodies had been mingled *and burned* with the Orcs.
Oh well. I guess this is more dramatic.
Tuor
Tolkien says this in one of his Letters, forget which one. The Numenoreans at their end were, as far as might goes, very, very powerful. They *could* have defeated the Aman on a purely military level -- even the Valar themselves.
I think the reason the Valar called upon Iluvatar is not only the valid point you raised about killing so many of the Younger Race, but that they couldn't do so delicately enough to avoid probably destroying Aman and many Elves in the process. Witness the results of all their previous battles.
Iluvatar, OTOH, had no such handicap. He can be as widely or as narrowly destructive as He thought best. The action He took in taking care of the Numenorians was direct, powerful, specific, and very effective. Very Godlike, in other words. :)
Tuor
No, they just grew older. Now they (collectively) are running the country. Film at 11.
Tuor
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