Islam may have descended from the Sadducees.

Today | Karl Klefsgård

[Cronos]

Olog-hai “Islam is more influenced by Gnosticism than actual Judaism”

Sorry, but how?

Gnosticism is based on “gnosis” ie that you must have knowledge to escape this created universe (I think this is an influence of Jainism).

Islam is about blunt submission. Don’t ask questions, don’t seek any knowledge outside the Quran and haditha.

The only Gnostic influence is the Islamic idea that Jesus never died on the cross (as he was a spirit or he tricked simon of cyrene into getting crucified instead of him). These docetism (a Gnostic-like heresy where Christ only appeared to suffer), or infancy miracle stories from apocryphal/Gnostic-tinged Christian texts. However, these are not core to Islam and contradict key Gnostic tenets (e.g., dualism, secret knowledge for salvation, demiurge creator-god). Gnostic-like ideas appear more in later Islamic mysticism (e.g., Sufism or early Shi’i sects) or fringe movements, influenced indirectly via Manichaeism or neo-Platonism, not as foundational.

In contrast Islam shares core elements with Judaism, including strict monotheism (tawhid echoing the Shema in Deuteronomy 6:4), prophets (e.g., Abraham, Moses), ethical laws (e.g., halal dietary rules akin to kosher, circumcision, almsgiving), and narratives from the Torah (e.g., creation, flood, exodus).

A poster here called Islam as “fan fiction” of Judaism, and, while simplistic, that is a goodish description.

Judaism’s direct role in Islam’s formation far outweighs any Gnostic elements.

[Cronos]

Ologhai “Tawhid has nothing to do with the Torah whatsoever; in fact, the notion of fatherhood on God’s part (which Islam denies vehemently) is straight out of the Torah, where God says “Israel is my son, even my firstborn” (Exodus 4:22).

Furthermore, the Koran merely makes mention of several Torah figures, while completely mixing up their histories and creating false narratives around them. That does not constitute similarity”

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Tawhid directly parallels the Torah’s monotheism, especially the Shema (Deut 6:4: “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one”), which echoes Quran 112:1 (”Say: He is Allah, the One”). Both affirm absolute unitarianism.

The Torah’s metaphorical “fatherhood” (Ex 4:22) is there, that’s true but it is poetic , not literal; Islam rejects any such imagery, but this difference doesn’t erase the core monotheistic overlap.

[Cronos]

Also, Dr. Franklin, I firmly believe that Mecca did not exist prior to 741 AD.

Ptolemy’s Geography (2nd century AD) lists s “Macoraba” (Μακόραβα) as an inland settlement in the Hejaz. Yet no consistent etymology links “Macoraba” to “Mecca”; proposed derivations (e.g., from South Arabian mkrb for “temple,” Hebrew makkah rabbah for “great slaughter,” or Arabic mihrāb) rely on non-native languages to the Hejaz and lack parallels in local toponyms, with no epigraphic evidence supporting the name. The Greek transcription issues (e.g., kappa not matching Semitic kāf) further undermine connections.

Ptolemy’s coordinates (73° 20’ longitude, 22° latitude) place Macoraba southeast of Yathrib (Medina), while Mecca is southwest of Medina. Ptolemy describes rivers (e.g., Betius) near Macoraba, but central Arabia (including Mecca’s location) has no such active rivers—only dry wadis; realigning Ptolemy’s map to match ancient wadi courses relocates Macoraba to sites like Al-Mahabishah, far from Mecca.

Pliny the Elder (Natural History, 1st century AD) and the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea (1st century AD) mention nearby ports (e.g., Muza) and tribes (e.g., Minæans) but no Mecca.

Diodorus Siculus (1st century BCE) describes Arabian oases but not Mecca.

Why would a supposedly famous trading city and pilgrimage site not be mentioned by anyone when cities to the north and south are frequently mentioned?

The Hejaz was a well known route for trade between the Mediterranean and India right from Assyrian times with the Roman red sea port, Berenika having hundreds of ships trading with india in the 1st century and writingw in Gujarati found there and on Socotra.

Heck, you had the queen of sheba, a place in yemen.

Yet no one writes about any Mecca.

Net net it didn’t exist prior to the 7th century.

That’s my studied opinion

[Jonty30]

I do appreciate all your discussions. It has been educational for myself.

[Cronos]

Adding more Jewish and/or Israeli freepers to comment and critique.

Guys, looking for your insights and opinions

[Bullish]

And we get this from someone's Facebook page? Ridiculous!

[Cronos]

My reference books

Hagarism by Patricia crone and Michael cook
Meccan trade and the rise of islam by Patricia crone
The truth about Muhammad by Robert Spencer
Did muhammad exist by Robert Spencer
The critical quran by Robert Spencer
Muhammad and the conquests of islam by Michael cook
Shadow of the sword by Tom bolland
YouTube video by Tom Holland

The mecca mystery by Peter townsen
No god but one by Nabeel Qureshi

And the fictional series Agent of Rome by Nick brown. The first book is kindof meh, but from book 2 it is great

[Jan_Sobieski]

Good points! Edomites were indeed Jewish coverts. The Herod family did indeed convert to Judaism

[Jan_Sobieski]

There are carvings of the box that holds Islam’s black stone all around Petra.

[Cronos]

I think it’s the stone of Elgabal

[Uncle Miltie]

Of your last 5 or so posts, I knew nothing. Which is interesting. It is rare to get such exceptionally well informed history here where I and most others are focused on polemics.

Thanks!

[Cronos]

It’s my particular hobby horse - history.

Please note that I am not making any religious or philosophical statements or hints in this, purely what history and archaeology can verify.

I started down this rabbit hole about 15 years ago when discussing the historicity of the Biblical books and then looked into what I thought was rock solid Islam “born in the light of history”. But I realized that this was false (and I am hardly the first to do so).

There is no real evidence for Islam before the 700s.

Also I started to read the Talmud, the Quran and some of the Hadiths. I don’t get the philosophy stuff but the Hadiths were obviously, to me, late entries while the Quran read as fan fiction.

I was surprised by how the Hadiths seem to copy parts of the Talmud , at least to me, and realized others noted the same earlier.

Then I discovered Tom Holland and Robert Spencer.

And the lightbulb moment was when listening to the Mongol conquests and realising that Southern iraq in the 7th to 13th centuries were intellectual hot beds of muslim. Jewish, Christian etc groups and they must habe shared thoughts and ideas.

I put some of the books I read above. Do read them and tell me your own studies and views

[Cronos]

I am aware that my own Christian background will color my views, but I try to keep unbiased.

That’s why other people’s views give me feedback

[trebb]

They actually began with Ishmael, son of Hagar, when Abraham disobeyed God.

[Dr. Franklin]

It’s Hadiths, sharia etc were written in Baghdad in the same place the Jewish Talmud and Jewish law Halakha were being finalized
Only from the 750s - 100 years AFTER the Arab conquests do we see islam, muhammad etc on coins and inscriptions.
Only in 750 is the Quran written down, 200 years after it was supposedly given. Only in the late 700s do we see Hadith sayings written down.
As fir the biography of this character Muhammad, the Sirah? It was written in the 800s, 200 years after its lead character supposedly died.
That’s like saying Abraham Lincoln vampire hunter is a biography

The idea that the mythical Mohammad was divinely inspired to write a religious text while living among largely illiterate nomads and traders is rather silly. It's certainly more logical to conclude that it was written in Baghdad, as a competing story to the life of Jesus, rather than the Hejaz, and that the Hadiths, were written in response to the Jewish laws emanating from the same place. Cairo would have been a more likely alternative to Baghdad than Mecca.

What is also curious is that among modern Arabs the spoken word of a leader supersedes the written word. Thus, what the leader says is more important that what was written. Arab Bedouin culture hasn't changed in that regard in a thousand years. So, why would the mythical Mohammad need to write down anything to proselytize the illiterate who couldn't read what he wrote?

[Cronos]

Arabs, not Islam.

The religion of Islam dates to the 8th century.

There are and WERE Christian Arabs.

[Eleutheria5]

I don’t know. Maybe. At this point, what difference does it make.

Saducees didn’t proselytize among the nations. It was a strictly Jew on Jew sect. Muslims aggressively and sometimes forcibly proselytize everyone. That’s the main departure. I don’t really care, as stated above.

[trebb]

The founder of Islam, the “prophet” Muhammed”, was an Arab - while it has spread across many cultures - it started with Arabs which started with Ishmael.

[Cronos]

The thing is - Muhammad as described in the Sirah as a prophet - he never existed.

The Arabs were, for centuries living on the borders between the two superpowers - Persia and Rome. They were their fighting proxies. Then, in the late 6th century, these two superpowers had a decades long war that devastated BOTH of them (the Persians captured Jerusalem and held it briefly, then the Romans turned the tide and destroyed the Persian capital and the Persian fire temples).

The Arabs basically walked in and took over.

And yet, for 100 years of this Arab empire there is NO mention of Muhammad, Quran, Islam - instead the Caliphs strike coins that have a CROSS on them.
Only after the Ummayyad dynasty falls, replaced by the Abbasid, do we see the Quran being written, the Hadiths and Sirah being written.

They invented this character called “Muhammad” — if you read the Quran you will see that this word “Muhammad” is used just 4 times in the Quran and each time it is used AS A TITLE. It IS a title - meaning “praiseworthy one”