Posted on 08/19/2025 9:24:42 AM PDT by Red Badger
BACK TO THE FUTURE!
AVIATION PING!...............
Re-submitting a design isn't uncommon in aviation history. But sometimes a company that really doesn't expect to win just throws out a re-worked design that doesn't necessarily check all the service's boxes.
True, but this design gives them a head start over a blank sheet of paper..................
“I Have a Dream” by Northrup-Grumman.
The Raider is not enough.
The 23 should have won. I’d never give another contract to Lockheed-Martin after what they did to the 22 and the debacle of the 35. They have plenty of other cash cows to exploit.
Northrup should also have succeeded with the F-20 but they just don’t have their suction in the right pit. Besides, the F-16 looked way cooler than the 20. I guess they sort of won after all the dust settled anyway. One wonders if and where further consolidation of the industry will go in time since six have become three? Boing (sic) has their bone to chew on with the enhanced 15 and the 47 now. What of Lockheed now? We rotate the weak sister position just to be fair and keep the politicians fed but it does not seem to keep anybody honest or superior in terms of production efficiency and delivered cost. A strictly qualitative observation and opinion.
Why not both?...................
“Doh... what?”
They’re cushioning the fall already. They have tried using different types of fighters with “special” attachments before. The first was the SR but they had a speed problem.
Super cruise in these will help stretch the fuel a little longer, but it is capable of inflight refueling, so what’s the advantage? Otherwise it is set up for air to air armament so what is the advantage of the stealth? A little confusing.
wy69
Sure, just have the FED fire up another line of credit.
Why not indeed?
We could have a joint aircraft since the F-111 and F-35 plans worked out so well. How could we possibly have managed to get the F-4 to work out, or the Skyraider?
All it has to do is be able to fire a 60nm AMRAAM at someone
Chance-Vought (LTV) threw out the re-worked Crusader to compete for fleet interceptor competition that eventually became the F-4 Phantom II. The Crusader III would have been interesting but extremely complex. Anyway that failed, but LTV came back for a 3rd try with a re-worked Crusader that became the simplified A-7.
From 200 miles away......................
Not taking any shots at the USAF, but the F-4 and Skyraider were both originally Navy programs. It would seem that, sometimes, a Navy plane can do just fine for some USAF requirements, but not the other way ‘round. Landing and launching from a carrier requires certain requirements be baked in at the conceptual design phase.
“The Black Widow suffered from none of these problems, and thus led a fruitful career as an imaginary alternative to the Raptor.”
Heh, heh. What a dig!
Doh... what?
Yeah, the YF-17 was hardly 'failed' or a 'footnote.' Sure, the USAF picked the YF-16, but the YF-17 led to the very successful F-18.
What’s wrong with the 22 and 35?
Both seem to be very successful projects.
He’s saying the YF-23 could be a repeat of the YF-17 and evolve into the F/A-XX. The YF-17 lost out to the F-16 the first time around, but eventually evolved into the FA-18.
- How could we possibly have managed to get the F-4 to work out-
We put a gun in it.
22, nothing wrong with it per se except the oxygen system that caused hypoxia. The real problem is that Lockheed lobbied against a really good airplane, the 22, to provide funds to build one that would make more money for them, the 35.
As for the 35, it was at least 14 to 18 years in the making from selection to operational status depending on the version. That was because of massive teething problems and restrictions that still exist. An assessment of “successful” depends on how much you know. For example, you can have the near VTOL capability so long as you don’t try to carry too many weapons. You can also have stealth so long as you don’t try to carry any external stores. You can carry fuel so long as it is not too warm Other than that and a few other things such as continual cost over runs it is just fine. The ability to see through the airplane in all directions is remarkable.
Search “f-35 problems list” and you should be able to understand that it is not a great airplane and Lockheed are not a great contractor. Of course Lockheed will blame everyone under the sun and vice versa because the program is a failure aside from finally delivering a plane that took from 1996 when the concept was hatched until 2024 when “full production was announced. Good thing we were not at war and the airplane was not critical.
Finally.
Like Churchill once said, “The Americans will always do the right thing when they have exhausted all the other possibilities.”
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