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Posted on 07/31/2025 5:57:14 PM PDT by marcusmaximus
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Pro-Russian posters contend that Russia’s invasion of Ukraine was to limit NATO encroaching on its border. However, prior to the invasion of Ukraine, there were already five NATO countries bordering Russia (six if you count the United States’ maritime boundary): Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Norway, and Poland. Since the invasion, Finland and Sweden have been convinced by Russia’s actions of the need for them to join NATO, also. The addition of Finland doubles NATO’s boundary with Russia. This now makes six countries bordering Russia—eight if you count the United States and Sweden, which have maritime boundaries.
If Russia’s plan in attacking Ukraine was to avoid NATO on its border, it obviously wasn’t thinking clearly. In addition, there are certain prior geographic issues worth noting:
If Russia decides to end the war by settling for control of four or five Ukrainian oblasts, then the rest of Ukraine will still be on its border.
If it conquers all of Ukraine, then the border with Poland would be greatly expanded.
Hmmm....Perhaps the NATO expansion was just an excuse. Naahh. Couldn’t be.
Putin wanted Moldova, too. And his scheme was to create a triad of Belarus, Moldova and Ukraine with Yanukovich as the supreme leader of the triad.
Prior to all this, NATO was no offensive military threat to Russia, with or without Ukraine. It (NATO, and especially Euro-NATO) had weakened itself far too much to even think about attacking Russia. What threat there was, was cultural and societal, should Ukraine with the help of the Euros be able to throw off its old Russian style pervasive corruption, and utilize its considerable natural resources to efficiently develop the country. Putin also argued his SMO was to rid Ukraine of Nazis, when in reality there were very few real Nazis in Ukraine, and they had no real power.
There still are not all that many Nazis in Ukraine, but, now Putin has created utter hatred of Russia in most of Ukraine’s remaining population. Some gain that is.
Putin has also caused the Euro-NATO nations to at least “commit” to 5% of GDP for defense, a number that if sustained would be quite enough to turn just Euro-NATO alone into a quite credible threat to Russia - with or without Ukraine, but a bit more so “with” Ukraine as an ally, even if not a NATO member.
And now, President Trump appears to be truly hacked at the Russians, too. Threatening the US (again) and threatening nukes (again) is just about the dumbest thing the Russians could do.
Putin and his advisers no doubt thought they could reproduce their success in grabbing Crimea. Their miscalculation was stupendous.
Even Tsar Nicolas II looks like a genius compared to this.
“prior to the invasion of Ukraine, there were already five NATO countries bordering Russia”
“Finland and Sweden have been convinced by Russia’s actions of the need for them to join NATO”
*****
“Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia”
These were and are at too great a risk themselves to likely present a defense problem to Russia.
“Norway” - not positioned to be a great threat
“Finland and Sweden have been convinced by Russia’s actions of the need for them to join NATO”
Finland was long thought by Russia to be a tamed country. It was and is at too great risk itself to present a problem to Russia.
“Poland” is a capable country that despises Russia, but except for the Kaliningrad region (German until late 1944), it was separated from Russia by the buffer states of Belarus and Ukraine.
There is no buffer between Russia and Ukraine. Putin and RF forces are now building one. Trump needs to be patient or tell the Ukrainians to pull back about 10 miles.
The war proved that Ukraine in 2021 was roughly equal to Russian Federation (RF) militarily.
Ukraine and Poland together would have been expected to be superior to RF militarily.
Ukraine, Poland and a few other NATO countries together could have been expected to be far superior to RF militarily.
The presidency of the incompetent Biden gave the RF an opportunity to do away with the Ukraine-based threat. Only Russian military leadership incompetence blocked success.
ZEEPER FOLLIES PINGLIST!
(((PING!)))
... to be added to the best Zeeper-provided entertainment since Paul Shanklin parodies, ping me bro.
“President Trump appears to be truly hacked at the Russians”
About 80% of US senators despise Trump. About 90% of the federal civilian workforce despises Trump.
I know of no foreign leaders except that of two Latin American countries that don’t despise Trump. Foreign governments and businesses are fed up with his tariff arrogance.
Half his own adult citizens despise Trump.
Many of his supporters think Trump is in above his head. They only tolerate Trump because the alternatives are intolerable.
Putin is going to call Trump’s new tariff bluff because Putin thinks the Chinese will teach Trump and the US stock market an expensive lesson.
The further from Moscow NATO is or could be, the safer Putin would feel.
It is the distance from the Kremlin that matters most.
Russia has always considered Ukraine to be its "soft underbelly" and also an integral part of Russian history and culture. All parts of Russian society believe this - liberal, conservative, communist, oligarchs, etc... Any student of Russian history and culture knows this. It's not new and certainly wasn't invented by Putin.
This same thinking does NOT apply to Poland, Finland, Sweden or the places you mentioned.
Moreover, neocons (and their promoters on FR) like to say it's nonsense. Present day Russia has no claim to Ukraine or should have strategic considerations therein.
So be it. But if you wish to control Ukraine, be prepared to fight Russia, in an existential war.
and its not me saying it
Here's original neocon Zbigniew Brzezinski saying it
Or if you don't like him, here's former CIA Director William Burns saying it
“Putin is going to call Trump’s new tariff bluff “
yep.
Russia has always considered Ukraine to be its “soft underbelly” and also an integral part of Russian history and culture. All parts of Russian society believe this - liberal, conservative, communist, oligarchs, etc... Any student of Russian history and culture knows this. It’s not new and certainly wasn’t invented by Putin.
Completely false. The average Russian couldn’t care less about Ukraine. Crimea is a different issue. I would agree with you there. Near every Russian feels should be Russian.
I expected such a response.
Its why I mentioned you should read Zbigniew Breczinski or William Burns.
I don’t think either side is in a position to teach the other a lesson. More like a scene in a Western where they all have guns pointed at each other and slowly put them away
So your go-to sources are Jimmy Carter’s national security advisor, and Joe Biden’s CIA director. Nice.
Half his own adult citizens despise Trump.
Many of his supporters think Trump is in above his head.
I'll bet saying that makes you "moister than an oyster" doesn't it?
I’ve no need to read anything. I’ve been to Russia. Talked to plenty of Russians here and there. Your average Russian is apolitical because of their history. They just want their iphones and vacations in Egypt. Don’t be duped from your armchair, FRiend.
And yet, US Presidents remain "the most powerful man in the world".
In addition, I think Trump has known all along we (he) would come to this point with the Russians.
Read closely again, I said: “President Trump appears to be truly hacked at the Russians”.
"Appears"?
Actually, I think he's been hacked at them ever since they invaded Ukraine, but, there's a (potentially very deadly) game to be played...
IMO, and I came to this conclusion only recently, what Trump has done is play a chunk of his base (the anti-support-for-Ukraine crowd), first to get elected (he would not have without them), then appear to lean toward Putin to get Putin to "deal" (the attack in Z-Man in the Oval Office, "threats" against NATO, etc.), then appear that Putin's obstinance gives him (Trump) no choice but to crack down on Russia: This loses him the Pooty tools, trolls, and bots, but does gain him some support on this issue in the US political "middle", and he's even nixed the objections of the deficit hawks to Ukraine support, by getting the Euros to pay for it - not to mention the vastly increased spending by the Euro's for NATO.
It's a game in a very tricky political environment with a lot of manipulation and attempted manipulation going on, and most of what Trump says is part of it. Two exceptions (I think) are his repulsion regarding the casualties, and his anger when the Russians talk about nukes (the latter of which he made very strong comments about, early on, if you recall.) Those I think are genuine, but Trump folds them into his approach nicely.
About 80% of US senators despise Trump.
But they will support his present approach on Ukraine.
About 90% of the federal civilian workforce despises Trump.
Fine with me, I despise them. And, name an actual conservative they would not despise.
I know of no foreign leaders except that of two Latin American countries that don’t despise Trump. Foreign governments and businesses are fed up with his tariff arrogance.
Yet he's getting results: Trade deals, getting Euro-NATO to spend more...
I do have serious misgivings about some of the tariffs myself, and have been slammed heatedly here for those misgivings. But, OTOH, what is YOUR proposal to rebuild the US industrial base?
Half his own adult citizens despise Trump. Many of his supporters think Trump is in above his head. They only tolerate Trump because the alternatives are intolerable.
Addressed above. Par for the course, esp. for any conservative.
Putin is going to call Trump’s new tariff bluff because...
Because he has no choice. He's utterly and foolishly boxed himself in. Nicolas II was a genius compared to Pooty.
... because Putin thinks the Chinese will teach Trump and the US stock market an expensive lesson.
It would be MORE damaging to the Chinese, Indians, etc. Wars are not fought without losses, and, we ARE in a war, an economic war, with China, tho' it need not be. That depends mostly on the Chinese leadership...
In this case, IMO Trump should remind importers of Russian oil and gas that said product at Russia's cost would be hugely beneficial to them. Plus, this war is harming everyone. Unless they have some huge ideological alliance with Russia, it would be advantageous for them to sort of "reverse cartel" Russia until it MUST desist due to the economic pressure.
HA HA
“Ive been to Russia.” That’s priceless.
did you actually talk to anyone in Government?
I guess we’ll ignore people like Henry Kissinger, George Kennan or William Burns, or people who actually make policy like Vladimir Putin or Sergei Lavrov, because some guy at McDonalds in Moscow told you he’s more concerned about trash pick up and his iPhone.
Keep up the good work.
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