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To: daniel1212
Resorting to Cath tradition only confirms the progressive accretions of traditions of men, and then teaching them for doctrines.

Or evidence that it was believed from the beginning. Unless you can show that early Christians did not believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary you cannot assume that it was a later accretion.

179 posted on 12/03/2024 7:22:32 PM PST by Petrosius
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To: Petrosius; daniel1212
Or evidence that it was believed from the beginning. Unless you can show that early Christians did not believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary you cannot assume that it was a later accretion.

You can't prove that either.

181 posted on 12/03/2024 8:26:56 PM PST by metmom (He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus)
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To: Petrosius
Or evidence that it was believed from the beginning. Unless you can show that early Christians did not believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary you cannot assume that it was a later accretion.

No, no, that is not how you establish authenticity of doctrine. Seriously, consider what you are engaging in. Based upon your absence of proof rule, unless you can show that early Christians did not believe in Mary or anyone being teleported to different locales, walking on water, making adversaries blind, parting the sea of Galilee, and never dying, , etc. etc. you cannot assume that this did not happen, and that the NT church did not believe these things.

Of course, you can agree that these are not found in "oral tradition," but neither was the bodily assumption of Mary for hundreds of years when it surely would be attested to.
As Ratzinger states,

Before Mary's bodily Assumption into heaven was defined, all theological faculties in the world were consulted for their opinion. Our teachers' answer was emphatically negative . What here became evident was the one-sidedness, not only of the historical, but of the historicist method in theology. “Tradition” was identified with what could be proved on the basis of texts. Altaner , the patrologist from Wurzburg…had proven in a scientifically persuasive manner that the doctrine of Mary’s bodily Assumption into heaven was unknown before the 5C ; this doctrine, therefore, he argued, could not belong to the “apostolic tradition. And this was his conclusion, which my teachers at Munich shared .
This argument is compelling if you understand “tradition” strictly as the handing down of fixed formulas and texts [meaning having actual substance in history]…But if you conceive of “tradition” as the living process whereby the Holy Spirit introduces us to the fullness of truth and teaches us how to understand what previously we could still not grasp (cf. Jn 16:12-13), then subsequent “remembering” (cf. Jn 16:4, for instance) can come to recognize what it has not caught sight of [even bcz there was nothing to see] previously and was already handed down [invisibly, without evidence] in the original Word,” — J. Ratzinger, Milestones (Ignatius, n.d.), 58-59 (words in [brackets] are mine).

Thus, Rome can "remember" what history "forgot" or inexplicably neglected to record.

Meanwhile, in Ethiopian Orthodox y you have the “Miracles of Mary,” a legendary narrative about the miracles of the Virgin Mary. Tales of these miracles circulated in Syria and Egypt long before the end of the fourth century, which enjoyed extensive popularity in Europe from the fifth to the 11thcentury, though once condemned by a local (not ecumenical) council in Rome in 494 A.D.

In one story, she miraculously gives marvelous apparel to a monk who has neither food nor clothing (Chapter 4). Another describes how she helps a drunken monk named Timothy lead a righteous life (Chapter 37). A third tells how a wrongly persecuted monk who trusts in her is vindicated.

In the story of the Virgin Mary and the Monastery of Ankona, the Virgin miraculously transfers the monastery to the border of Jericho and rebuilds it there – to the great astonishment of both the monks and the people of the city.
Another story relates the saga of the abbess Sophia, who illegitimately conceives a child by a young manservant. Later, the Virgin Mary tells the angels to remove the child from the penitent abbess Sophia’s womb and give him to a man named Felix.

Then there is,

A man from the town of Kemer devours 78 people, including his family and friends, before setting out in search of more. Shortly before he dies, the cannibal gives a leprous beggar a drink when the thirsty man asks for it in the name of the Virgin Mary. When the cannibal’s soul is weighed in the balance, the little drops of water outweigh the souls he has devoured and the cannibal is saved – to the amazement of the angels of light. Source: https://cnewa.org/magazine/miracles-of-mary-30776

However, the Holy Spirit reproved thinking of mortals "above that which is written," (1 Co. 4:6) and typical hyper "veneration" of Mary are claims which exalt her by ascribing aspects which largely parallel those of the Lord Jesus.

For in the the Catholic quest to almost deify Mary, it is taught by Catholics*,

Mary was a holy, virtuous instrument of God, but of whom Scripture says relatively little, while holy fear ought to restrain ascribing positions, honor, glory and powers to a mortal that God has not revealed as given to them, and or are only revealed as being possessed by God Himself. But like as the Israelites made an instrument of God an object of worship, (Num. 21:8,9; 2Kg. 18:4) Catholics have magnified Mary far beyond what is written and warranted and even allowed, based on what is in Scripture.

182 posted on 12/03/2024 8:32:06 PM PST by daniel1212 (Turn 2 the Lord Jesus who saves damned+destitute sinners on His acct, believe, b baptized+follow HIM)
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To: Petrosius
Unless you can show that early Christians did not believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary you cannot assume that it was a later accretion.

Au contraire mon ami.

It's the other way around: Unless you can show that early Christians DID believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary you cannot claim it's been that way forever.

210 posted on 12/04/2024 5:23:25 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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