Thoughts on the souls of the dead

self | 10/24/2024 | fwdude

[daniel1212]

How else could the saints in Heaven hear our prayers, and intercede with God on our behalf, unless they were still conscious of happenings on Earth and the thoughts of living humans?

They may know somewhat of events on earth, even from new arrivals, but they are not the one who knows the hearts and prayers of all, nor are they ever prayed to in Scripture by believers, or in instruction on prayer, despite over 200 prayers which the Holy Spirit recorded.

Then hear thou from heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and render unto every man according unto all his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou only knowest the hearts of the children of men:) (2 Chronicles 6:30)

[daniel1212]

In general, I think we awaken on our Judgement Day and all of Mankind hears our sins.

There are two different postmortem judgements, one for believers and one for the lost, separated by 1,000 years.

For first, salvation is not based on Christ’s final judgment for they are already saved or lost before any judgment, and instead salvation is based upon heart-purifying regenerating effectual living faith, (Acts 10:43-47; 17:7-9) being counted/imputed for righteousness. (Rm. 4:5) Saved souls are vindicated in this as being believers by their works of obedience, and if they die in the faith, or are here when Christ returns, then as shown here before more than once, wherever Scripture clearly speak of the next conscious reality for believers then it is with the Lord, (Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7]; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17) Note in the latter case all believers were assured that if the Lord returned, which they expected in their lifetime, so would they “ever be with the Lord,” though they were still undergoing growth in grace, as was Paul. (Phil. 3:7f)

And the next transformative experience that is manifestly taught is that of being like Christ in the "first resurrection." (1Jn. 3:2; Rm. 8:23; 1Co 15:53,54; 2Co. 2-4; (Revelation 20:6)

At which first resurrection all believers shall "stand before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." (2 Corinthians 5:10) For "every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour...Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1 Corinthians 3:8, 13-15)

At which is the only suffering after this life, and which does not begin at death, but awaits the Lord's return, (1 Corinthians 4:5; 2 Timothy. 4:1,8; Revelation 11:18; Matthew 25:31-46; 1 Peter 1:7; 5:4) and as shown, it is the suffering of the loss of rewards (and the Lord's displeasure) due to the manner of material one built the church with, which one is saved despite the loss of such, not because of. (1 Corinthians 3:8ff)

After which first resurrection and the judgment seat of Christ "they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:6) Which is followed by the great white throne judgment of the lost in which God will render to every man according to his works, with believers acting as kind of jury, providing testimony to the evil the lost did. Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? (1 Corinthians 6:2) . And which is not to determine who is saved, but is the suffering of the loss of rewards (and the Lord's displeasure) due to the manner of material one built the church with, which one is saved despite the loss of such, not because of. (1 Corinthians 3:8ff)

For there are two judgments, the resurrection of life and the resurrection of damnation, each separated by the 1,000 year reign of Christ (regardless if Rome denies it) with words and works formally justifying souls as being believers and rewarded accordingly for their effectual faith, while unbelievers - beginning with the devil - are shown to be so in the light of their works, and with them receiving the fitting punishment for their unbelieving deeds.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (Revelation 20:5)

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:29)

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)

And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, (Revelation 20:2)

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Revelation 20:4)

During which time there will be unregenerate souls (which the elect rule over) and temple sacrifices and forgiveness, as Ezekiel 34-46 extensively details.

And those that had part in the first resurrection go with the Lord as His army to the battle of Armageddon, and then to reign with Christ for a 1,000 years, and then to sit in judgment (as in a jury) in sentencing the lost.

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 14-15)

Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? (1 Corinthians 6:2-3)

And which Great White throne judgment (Rev. 20:11-15) is not the same as that for believers, which is the judgment seat of Christ, which is the only suffering after this life, which does not begin at death, but awaits the Lord's return, (1 Corinthians 4:5; 2 Timothy. 4:1,8; Revelation 11:18; Matthew 25:31-46; 1 Peter 1:7; 5:4)

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Revelation 20:4) However, it is a shame that Catholics deny the clearly taught fact that rather than one general resurrection of the redeemed and the lost, the is a 1,000 years difference btwn the "first resurrection," the "resurrection of life," and the second resurrection

[daniel1212]

I too believe that the dead are in heaven. Although when Jesus said “Today, you will be with me in Paradise”, Jesus didn’t go to Paradise - he went to Hell.

Paradise was Abraham's bosom, a place of comfort, awaiting the perfect atonement of Lord Jesus and then Him to release them to Heaven, later called Paradise:

For (as shown with a remarkable confluence of texts) while Christ finished providing the expiation for sin needed for the way into the holy of holies to be opened, which aforetime was not

[7]

[8]

(although God forgave sin in recognition of what Christ would provide, which the O.T. sacrificial system represented,

[9]

and which opening was the tearing of the heavy veil of the temple being supernaturally torn rent in two from the top to the bottom, and with earthquakes,

[10]

yet the promised pouring out of the Holy Spirit and gifts upon all believers awaited the Lord s glorification and resurrection.

[11]

Thus we read,

But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: (Ephesians 4:7-13)

“The “gift of Christ” is that pouring out of the Spirit which the disciples were told to wait for in Jerusalem, which about 120 realized, (Acts 1,2) and was preceded by the Lord descending into the “lower part do the earth,” releasing souls who were comforted in Abraham’s Bosom,

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also called Paradise,

[13]

but could not yet enter the holy of holies which believers would have immediate access to (as shown above).

And by the Spirit the Lord also preached unto the disobedient spirits in prison (Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water: 1 Peter 3:19, 20) which was that of declaring that in rejecting Noah then they in essence rejected Christ.

And while He was descended, the Lord released all the OT believers (“led captivity captive) to Heaven, and thus it was only “after his resurrection” that OT believers “went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. “(Matthew 27:53)

And having released all in Paradise/Abraham’s Bosom and ascended up to Heaven, Paradise is now called the “third Heaven.”

[14]

And being resurrected and glorified, the Lord, as promised, poured out the “gift of Christ” - the Spirit and with gifts, upon all believers beginning at Pentecost. Thus the words of Peter:

Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. (Acts 2:33)

And the same heart-purifying regenerating faith by the Spirit was realized by the Gentiles who believed:

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. (Acts 10:43)

And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. (Acts 15:7-9)

Thus while the church can be called an assembly, the formal functional beginning of the NT church awaited the resurrection of Christ and the pouring out of the gifts thereof and offices.

For this brings us back to Ephesians 4:9-12) again, Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: (Ephesians 4:9-12)

Footnotes

[1]

http://But if ye enquire any thing concerning other matters, it shall be determined in a lawful assembly. (Acts 19:39)

[2]

http://This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: (Acts 7:38)

[3]

http://Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Acts 20:28)

[4]

http://When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. (John 19:30)

[5]

http://Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. (1 John 4:10)

[6]

http://Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; (Hebrews 10:19-20)

[7]

http://The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: (Hebrews 9:8)

[8]

http://For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. (Hebrews 10:4)

[9]

http://`For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. (Hebrews 10:1)

[10]

http://Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. (Matthew 27:50)

[11]

http://He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) (John 7:38-39)

[12]

http://And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; (Luke 16:22)

[13]

http://And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Luke 23:43)

[14]

http://How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. (2 Corinthians 12:4)

[FrozenAssets]

Actually you get to chase cats and cause them to gallop across the house inexplicably.

[metmom]

I have some questions for Christians of the "instant glorification" theological belief after death. Do the departed Christians retain some conscious awareness of the goings-on in creation, on Earth, and popular entertainment often depicts?

Considering popular entertainment's track record on theological issues, I'd say they were wrong on this one.

CS Lewis kind of dealt with this in his book *The Great Divorce*.

Scripture, however, doesn't seem to give us much in the way of an answer. While we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses, it doesn't necessarily mean they are watching, as much as they are also other witnesses to the truth who lived and we are part of that crowd.

I think you're suspicion is correct.

[Big Red Badger]

“His Own Life”
.
This ‘Upholstered Sewer’ we live
In has lost it’s appeal.

[alexander_busek]

Bad punctuation. Jesus said, “I tell you today (right now), you will be with me in paradise.”

Tell us, without telling us, that you are a Jehovah's Witness. That is their standard interpretation, if I'm not mistaken.

And, yes: Ancient Hebrew (as well as all other languages at that time) did suffer sorely from a lack of proper punctuation.

No telling how different the Bible would read if the ancients had had semicolons, commas, parentheses, brackets, etc.

Footnotes, endnotes, a glossary, an index, and a section titled "FAQs" would have been likewise appreciated!

Regards,

[alexander_busek]

The rich man was in Hades - BUT HE “saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.”

How could that be possible? I have difficulty locating my wife in a crowded airport concourse.

Maybe: Opera glasses?

Regards,

[alexander_busek]

I perceive that Roman Catholics are in a minority here.

Regards,

[alexander_busek]

So when he babysat for me he would put me on the couch with coloring books crayons and put feathers on the floor in front of the couch. He told me they would chase me if I got off the couch, then he would take his girlfriend upstairs to make out. I got chicken pox and was terrified, which no one could understand.

Are you saying that you contracted Chicken Pox as a result of the feathers on the floor? Or are you saying that you had previously had Chicken Pox, and had therefore developed a phobia towards feathers?

The timeline of your story is a little confusing.

Regards,

[stig]

Heaven and the hereafter are not part of the space/time continuum that the earth resides in. So there is the very real possibility that when we die and go to heaven we may all be arriving there together instantly at the same “time” (which doesn’t exist there anyway). So there is nobody left behind to watch over and grieve about.

I share your view.

A big part of being mortal is the concept of time. God would presumably transcend space and time. It also solves the problem that there is some sort of waiting room for souls waiting to be judged. Time disappears and the process happens instantaneously so to speak.

[daniel1212]

I perceive that Roman Catholics are in a minority here. Regards,

That is hardly what is manifest, though irreligious "conservatives" (such as care not to make abortion and LGBTQ major issues) seem to have become a larger percentage here over time.

[Cronos]

There are different thoughts on this —
that we retain separate consciousness and care about the goings-on on earth
that we retain separate consciousness and don’t care about the goings-on on earth (the Jain method)
that we don’t retain separate consciousness but are absorbed into “something”

As per what we see in the Bible we know that
1. we are “alive” in Christ - death was conquered
2. that we will be “one” with God

Paul expects to be conscious in the intermediate state when he says he “would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord” (2 Cor. 5:8; cf. Phil. 1:21–24).

The clearest passages indicating consciousness in the intermediate state are in Revelation, where the souls of the martyred are depicted praying and worshipping God (Rev. 6:9–11, 7:13–15).

I think this makes it clear that from a Christian point of view we still retain our distinctive consciousness and are not “absorbed” per se. To “look” at us requires God to provide us that information - He becomes the medium connecting us all (being “one” with Him).

I think they are “aware” of the happenings, but in someway that we, living in space-time, can’t comprehend.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 may seem the opposite, but one needs to not excerpt but read the entire chapter:

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and they have no more for ever any share in all that is done under the sun. Go, eat your bread with enjoyment… Enjoy life with the wife who you love… which he has given you under the sun. Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going. Again, I saw that under the sun the race is not to the swift…

The inspired author does not say the dead have no existence at all. The context reveals that he was saying the dead have nothing to do, and no knowledge of, what is happening “under the sun” as I’ve said before. But, in the end, the writer of Ecclesiastes knows that justice is coming in the next life. So certain is he of this that he can say in the final two verses of the book:

The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God, and keep his commandments; for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.

The writer of Ecclesiastes is focusing upon what happens “under the sun” until the very end when he tells us that the after-life is the place where everything will finally make sense. He does not attempt to give us an in-depth teaching of the nature of the after-life. He simply assures his readers that ultimate justice awaits in God’s good time.

And Eccl is dated to BEFORE the “living in Christ”.

[RoosterRedux]

Good points.

And Ecclesiastes is best read as satire (meant by its author to critique and mock the vain pursuits of human life, ultimately guiding readers to a deeper awareness of divine wisdom).

[Cronos]

I think ultimately for fwdude to his question: we don’t really know.

It’s like the question “do dogs go to heaven” - we just don’t have clear answers

[RoosterRedux]

Yep. I am always shocked when people tell me that there's nothing about heaven that isn't in the Bible.

My response usually is that there's very little in the Bible about heaven.

Hell, on the other hand...

[Salvavida]

Chronological understanding of glorification is tough when dealing with a God who operates outside of time.

I think a firm understanding of Glorification first: https://www.gotquestions.org/glorification.html

After that, I think It’s an understanding of eschatology, and where one falls into that. For instance, if you are an amillennialist (general resurrection and general judgment), the souls are still asleep in the presence of the Lord, and would not have specific knowledge until they are awakened and translated into glory.

I fall into this camp. The souls are asleep, awaiting the return of the King and a General Resurrection, and judgment.