What were the 1950s like?

bttt

If Eisenhower hadn’t held back our troops, we would have won the Battle of Berlin—and it might not have been much of a battle because the Germans would likely have quickly given up.

And then there would have been no Berlin Wall.

You leave out the fact that the Germans surrendered to the Allies at Rheims, France on May 7. The Germans on the Italian front surrendered even earlier.

By the way, although I personally use Wikipedia as a quick source of information, I would never cite it as a resource.

If the dog hadn’t stopped to take a crap, he would have caught the rabbit.

You leave out the fact that the Germans surrendered to the Allies at Rheims, France on May 7.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Berlin

Battle of Berlin
Result: Soviet victory
• Death of Adolf Hitler and other high-ranking Nazi officials
• Unconditional surrender of German garrison in Berlin on 2 May
• Capitulation of Germany on 8 May
• End of World War II in Europe

V-E day is celebrated on May 8th, when Germany capitulated to the Soviets.

So the Germans fighting the Soviets were the last to surrender. Big deal! Eisenhower and his noble, fighting Yanks and Brits had already beaten the Germans.

Once again, you cite Wikipedia, an unreliable source.

Much better than now except advanced healthcare

“It doesn’t have to be perfect to be good”

The wooden roller coaster at ponchatrain

Fitzgeralds close by

The big Walgreens on canal with upstairs soda shop and restaurant that had breakfast for 25 cents later 50 cents

T. Pitarri’s

Holmes on canal napoleons downstairs best ever made

Jax

And so forth

By 1970 half the population was under 25

I was right in the middle of boomers

Largest year of births

My grandmother used to take me and my cousin to that Walgreens.

How about the war in the Pacific? You will likely argue that the Soviet declaration of war on Japan and subsequent invasion of Japanese territory was the decisive action that brought about the Allied victory.

We rebuilt postwar Europe with the Marshall Plan. It didn’t include Japan.

We did it to prevent a repeat of the punitive Versaille treaty, with its destructive reparations that paved the way for Nazism to rise to power.

And to turn Germany into a strong ally that could keep the Soviet Union from expanding beyond the Warsaw Pact’s borders.

It didn’t include Japan.

Okay, Japan was not part of the Marshall Plan, but we did at least as much for Japan, as we did for Germany. We even forced them to make abortion legal in 1947.

But at least Japan did not start immediately hating us.

The Red Army was only 40 miles from Berlin when the Yalta Conference convened in early February 1945. Roosevelt and Churchill agreed to a division of Germany that left Berlin in the Soviet sector.

Eisenhower could have let Patton and Montgomery drive for Berlin ahead of the Red Army, but Yalta had already set the postwar division. Omar Bradley, Patton’s immediate superior, estimated that capturing Berlin could run as high as 100,000 casualties.

“Okay, Japan was not part of the Marshall Plan, but we did at least as much for Japan, as we did for Germany.”

We did nothing like that.

MacArthur instituted major economic, political and social reforms in postwar Japan but there was no economic largesse like the Marshall Plan. The only boost that they got from us came in 1950-53 when we used Japan as a base for the Korean War.

You can read about it here:

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/japan-reconstruction

So, you are claiming Japan had it’s own military all that time, and it wasn’t paid for by the U.S.?

[Fiji Hill #223] You leave out the fact that the Germans surrendered to the Allies at Rheims, France on May 7.

The emergency surrender papers were not cobbled together until May 8, 1945. The Russians were in Berlin and the Germans were desperate not to be taken as prisoners of Russia. The Russian representative was never authorized to sign the document. The definitive document, signed by the German high command, and an authorized representative of Russia, was signed May 9, 1945 Moscow time. V-E Day in Russia is May 9.

[Fiji Hill #226] Once again, you cite Wikipedia, an unreliable source

Once again, you cite nothing at all. Citing another source would not change V- E day to May 7th, but might change it to May 9th.

The Germans were desperate to surrender to the Americans, not the Russians. Their only problem was that the Russians were in Berlin and the Americans were not.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/48201749

VE Day: What is it, when is it and why do we remember?
Published 8 May 2022

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/victory-in-europe

On May 8, 1945, both Great Britain and the United States celebrate Victory in Europe Day. Cities in both nations, as well as formerly occupied cities in Western Europe, put out flags and banners, rejoicing in the defeat of the Nazi war machine during World War II.
The eighth of May spelled the day when German troops throughout Europe finally laid down their arms: In Prague, Germans surrendered to their Soviet antagonists, after the latter had lost more than 8,000 soldiers, and the Germans considerably more; in Copenhagen and Oslo; at Karlshorst, near Berlin; in northern Latvia; on the Channel Island of Sark—the German surrender was realized in a final cease-fire. More surrender documents were signed in Berlin and in eastern Germany.
The main concern of many German soldiers was to elude the grasp of Soviet forces, to keep from being taken prisoner. About 1 million Germans attempted a mass exodus to the West when the fighting in Czechoslovakia ended, but were stopped by the Russians and taken captive. The Russians took approximately 2 million prisoners in the period just before and after the German surrender.
Meanwhile, more than 13,000 British POWs were released and sent back to Great Britain.

https://www.history.com/news/remembering-v-e-day

Joseph Stalin insisted on a second surrender ceremony
As the fighting neared its end, the post-war political wrangling had already begun. When Soviet leader Joseph Stalin heard about the surrender ceremony in Reims, he was none too pleased. He declared that the U.S.S.R’s representative there, Ivan Susloparov, had not been authorized to sign the document and that the wording differed from a previous agreement Stalin had approved. Stalin, who ensured Soviet troops were the first to arrive in Berlin in an effort to secure control of the city before the Allies, also refused to accept a surrender signed on French soil, and declared the Reims document simply a preliminary surrender. Stalin’s remarks caused massive confusion; German radio announced that the Axis may have surrendered on the Western Front, but remained at war with the Soviets, and fighting continued throughout the day on May 8. Finally, just before midnight (in the early hours of the 9th, Moscow time), another hastily assembled ceremony got underway in Soviet-controlled Berlin. So, while much of the world commemorates V-E Day on May 8, Victory Day in Russia and its republics would be celebrated on May 9.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Instrument_of_Surrender

The German Instrument of Surrender was a legal document effecting the unconditional surrender of the remaining German armed forces to the Allies, and ended World War II in Europe; the signing took place at 22:43 CET on 8 May 1945 and the surrender took effect at 23:01 CET on the same day.
The day before that, Germany had signed another surrender document close to it with the Allies in Reims in France, but it was not recognized by the Soviet Union for enforcement, so another document was needed to sign; and in addition, immediately after signing the German forces were ordered to cease fire in the west and continue fighting in the east. Germany under the Flensburg Government led by the head of state, Grand-Admiral Karl Dönitz, also accepted the Allied suggestion to sign a new document. The document was signed at the seat of the Soviet Military Administration in Germany (Karlshorst, Berlin) by representatives from the German "Oberkommando der Wehrmacht" (OKW), the Allied Expeditionary Force represented by the British, and the Supreme High Command of the Soviet Red Army, with further French and American representatives signing as the witnesses. This time, Field-Marshal Wilhelm Keitel was the highest representative of Germany at the signing ceremony. This surrender document of Germany also led to the de facto fall of Nazi Germany. As one result of Nazi German downfall, the Allies had de facto occupied Germany since the German defeat—which was later confirmed via the Berlin Declaration by the four countries of Allies as the common representative of new Germany (France, USSR, UK and the US), on 5 June 1945.
There were three language versions of the surrender document—English, Russian, and German—with the English and Russian versions proclaimed in the document itself as the only authoritative ones.
[...]
As the German surrender happened, the EAC text was substituted by a simplified, military-only version based on the wording of the partial surrender instrument of German forces in Italy signed at the surrender of Caserta. The reasons for the change are disputed but may have reflected awareness of the reservations being expressed as to the capability of the German signatories to agree the provisions of the full text or the continued uncertainty over communicating the "dismemberment clause" to the French.
[...]
German forces in Southern Germany
On 5 May 1945, all German forces in Bavaria and Southwest Germany signed an act of surrender to the Americans at Haar, outside Munich; coming into effect on 6 May.
The impetus for the Caserta capitulation had arisen from within the local German military command; but from 2 May 1945, the Dönitz government assumed control of the process, pursuing a deliberate policy of successive partial capitulations in the west to play for time in order to bring as many as possible of the eastern military formations westwards so as to save them from Soviet or Yugoslav captivity, and surrender them intact to the British and Americans. In addition, Dönitz hoped to continue to evacuate soldiers and civilians by sea from the Hela peninsula and the surrounding Baltic coastal areas.
[...]
German Army Group Ostmark
To avoid capture by the Soviet Union, Army Group Ostmark led by general Lothar Rendulic moved to the west and signed surrender document with American 71st Infantry Division led by their general Willard G. Wyman in Steyr of Upper Austria on 7 May 1945; it took effect on 8 May 1945, at 0:01 CET.
[...]
Preliminary surrender document in Reims
General Alfred Jodl signing the capitulation papers of unconditional surrender in Reims, France
Dönitz's representative, Admiral Hans-Georg von Friedeburg, informed him on 6 May that Eisenhower was now insisting on "immediate, simultaneous and unconditional surrender on all fronts." General Alfred Jodl was sent to Reims to attempt to persuade Eisenhower otherwise, but Eisenhower shortcircuited any discussion by announcing at 21:00 pm on the 6th that, in the absence of a complete capitulation, he would close British and American lines to surrendering German forces at midnight on 8 May and resume the bombing offensive against remaining German-held positions and towns. Jodl telegraphed this message to Dönitz, who responded, authorizing him to sign the instrument of unconditional surrender, but subject to negotiating a 48-hour delay, ostensibly to enable the surrender order to be communicated to outlying German military units.
[...]
The unconditional surrender of the German armed forces was signed by Jodl, on behalf of the OKW. Walter Bedell Smith signed on behalf of the Supreme Commander of the Allied Expeditionary Force and General Ivan Susloparov on behalf of the Soviet High Command. French Major-General François Sevez signed as the official witness.
Eisenhower had proceeded throughout in consultation with General Aleksei Antonov of the Soviet High Command; and at his request, General Susloparov had been seconded to the SHAEF Headquarters to represent the Soviet High Command in the surrender negotiations. The text of the act of surrender had been telegraphed to General Antonov in the early hours of 7 May, but no confirmation of Soviet approval had been received by the time of the surrender ceremony, nor was there confirmation that General Susloparov was empowered to sign as representing the Soviet High Command. Accordingly, Eisenhower agreed with Susloparov that a separate text should be signed by the German emissaries; undertaking that fully empowered representatives of each of the German armed services would attend a formal ratification of the act of surrender at a time and place designated by the Allied High Commands.
[...]
Definitive surrender document in Berlin
Some six hours after the Reims signing, a response was received from the Soviet High Command stating that the Act of Surrender was unacceptable, both because the text differed from that agreed by the EAC, and because Susloparov had not been empowered to sign. These objections were, however, pretexts; the substantive Soviet objection was that the act of surrender ought to be a unique, singular, historical event fully reflecting the leading contribution of the Soviet people to the final victory. They maintained that it should not be held on liberated territory that had been victimized by German aggression, but at the seat of government from where that German aggression sprang: Berlin. Furthermore, the Soviets pointed out that, although the terms of the surrender signed in Reims required German forces to cease all military activities and remain in their current positions; they were not explicitly required to lay down their arms and give themselves up, "what has to happen here is the surrender of German troops, giving themselves up as prisoners". Eisenhower immediately agreed, acknowledging that the act of surrender signed in Reims should be considered "a brief instrument of unconditional military surrender", and undertook to attend with correctly accredited representatives of the German High Command for a "more formal signing" of a suitably amended text presided over by Marshal Georgy Zhukov in Berlin (capital of Nazi Germany) on 8 May. Furthermore, he issued a clarificatory statement that any German forces continuing to fight against the Soviets after the stated deadline would "no longer have the status of soldiers"; and hence, if they were to surrender to the Americans or British, would then be handed back into Soviet captivity.
The effect of the Reims signing was limited to a consolidation of the effective ceasefire between German forces and the Western Allies. Fighting continued unabated in the east however, especially as German forces now intensified their air and ground assault against the Prague uprising, while the seaborne evacuation of German troops across the Baltic continued. Dönitz issued new commands that resistance to Soviet forces should be maintained, taking advantage of the 48-hour grace period to order redoubled efforts to save German military units from Soviet captivity; and it soon became clear that he had authorized the signing of a general surrender at Reims in bad faith, and that consequently neither the Soviet Command nor the German forces would accept the Reims surrender as effecting an end to hostilities between them. General Ferdinand Schörner commanding Army Group Centre, broadcast a message to his troops on 8 May 1945 denouncing "false rumors" that the OKW had surrendered to the Soviet Command as well as the Western Allies; "The struggle in the west however is over. But there can be no question of surrender to the Bolsheviks."
Consequently, Eisenhower arranged for the commanders in chief of each of the three German armed services to be flown from Flensburg to Berlin early on 8 May; where they were kept waiting through the day until 10:00 pm when the Allied delegation arrived, at which point the amended surrender text was provided to them. The definitive Act of Military Surrender was dated as being signed before midnight on 8 May[28] at the seat of the Soviet Military Administration in Berlin-Karlshorst, now the location of the Museum Berlin-Karlshorst. Since Eisenhower as Supreme Allied Commander for Western Europe technically outranked Zhukov, the act of signing on behalf of the Western Allies passed to his deputy, Air Chief Marshal Arthur Tedder. The proposed Soviet amendments to the Reims surrender text were accepted without difficulty by the Western Allies; but the identification and designation of the Allied signatories proved more problematic. French forces operated under SHAEF command, but General de Gaulle was demanding that General de Tassigny sign separately for the French High Command; but in that case it would be politically unacceptable for there to be no American signature on the definitive surrender document, while the Soviets would not agree to there being more than three Allied signatories in total – one of whom would have to be Zhukov. After repeated redrafts, all of which needed translating and retyping, it was finally agreed that both French and American signatures would be as witnesses. But the consequence was that the final versions were not ready for signing until after midnight. Consequently, the physical signing was delayed until nearly 01:00 am on 9 May, Central European Time; and then back-dated to 8 May to be consistent with the Reims agreement and the public announcements of the surrender already made by Western leaders. However, the official Soviet dispatch stated that the signing took place at 22:43 CET on 8 May, meaning that the signing still took place before the German surrender took effect.
The definitive Act of Military Surrender differed from the Reims signing principally in respect of requiring three German signatories, who could fully represent all three armed services together with the German High Command.

[Fiji Hill #226] Eisenhower and his noble, fighting Yanks and Brits had already beaten the Germans.

Well, with the help of the noble, fighting French, thay had won the war in France.

The Germans were engaged in emergency flight to the west to surrender to the Americans or Brits before they were captured by the Russians.

This particular season of the Amazing Race ended not at the Eiffel Tower in Paris but at the seat of the Soviet Military Administration in Berlin-Karlshorst. The event in France was an emergency surrender ceremony. General Alfred Jodl was good enough for Germany, and Lieutenant General Walter Bedell Smith was good enough for the United States. Unfortunately, the Russian representative was never authorized to sign the document at all. In Germany, the surrender was signed by German Field Marshal Wilhelm Keitel.

We did it to prevent a repeat of the punitive Versaille treaty, with its destructive reparations that paved the way for Nazism to rise to power.

Look up your history. The U.S. (and U.K.) were planning to be at least as punitive as 1919, if not more. It was only as the Cold War dawned that that changed.

How about the war in the Pacific? You will likely argue that the Soviet declaration of war on Japan and subsequent invasion of Japanese territory was the decisive action that brought about the Allied victory.

No, I leave fairy tales to you.

“So, you are claiming Japan had it’s own military all that time, and it wasn’t paid for by the U.S.?”

You mean the Japanese military that we dismantled when they surrendered? I don’t think that non-existant military cost us anything. Their own postwar consitution prohibited them from even having a military.

“The crowning achievement of the first phase of the Occupation was the promulgation at SCAP’s behest in 1947 of a new Constitution of Japan. Most famously Article 9 of the Japanese Constitution explicitly disavows war as an instrument of state policy and promises that Japan will never maintain a military.”

“The first phase, roughly from the end of the war in 1945 through 1947, involved the most fundamental changes for the Japanese Government and society. The Allies punished Japan for its past militarism and expansion by convening war crimes trials in Tokyo. At the same time, SCAP dismantled the Japanese Army and banned former military officers from taking roles of political leadership in the new government.”

“After the UN entered the Korean War, Japan became the principal supply depot for UN forces. The conflict also placed Japan firmly within the confines of the U.S. defense perimeter in Asia, assuring the Japanese leadership that whatever the state of its military, no real threat would be made against Japanese soil.”

“In the third phase of the occupation, beginning in 1950, SCAP deemed the political and economic future of Japan firmly established and set about securing a formal peace treaty to end both the war and the occupation. The U.S. perception of international threats had changed so profoundly in the years between 1945 and 1950 that the idea of a re-armed and militant Japan no longer alarmed U.S. officials; instead, the real threat appeared to be the creep of communism, particularly in Asia. The final agreement allowed the United States to maintain its bases in Okinawa and elsewhere in Japan, and the U.S. Government promised Japan a bilateral security pact.”