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To: DiogenesLamp; Ultra Sonic 007
This was allegedly written by James Madison when he was president.

For the source of this allegation before it was laundered, here is the 199-page Amicus Brief where said allegation appeared:

https://www.scribd.com/document/83104811/Kerchner-Laudenslager-v-Obama-Ballot-Challenge-Brief-on-Behalf-of-Objectors-Filed-28Feb2012

Kerchner and Laudenslager v. Obama, Brief on Behalf of Objectors, Karen L. Kiefer, Esq; On the Brief: Mario Apuzzo, Esq.

At page 58:

Support for my position is found in an old article that has just recently surfaced. An internet researcher by the name rxsid of Free Republic has recently found this article and provided it to Attorney Leo Donofrio who has recently published the article at his blog at

http://naturalborncitizen.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/alexandria-herald.pdf.

This old article was published by Publius on October 7, 1811, in The Alexandria Herald, concerning the “Case of James McClure,” which “made a great deal of stir in the U. States.” Mr. Donofrio infers that, given that “Publius” was the pseudonym used by Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, and John Jay in the Federalist Papers and that in 1811 Hamilton was dead and Jay retired, Publius is really James Madison. The Publius article states that McClure was born in the United States on April 21, 1785. His father was a British subject at the time of his birth.

At page 59:

The names of James McClure and John Rodman appear as names existing in Chester County, South Carolina in the estate papers of Thomas Gillespie, who died in 1808.
http://genforum.genealogy.com/sc/chester/messages/211.html

As noted back in 2012:

While it may be accurate that the names of James McClure and John Rodman appear in the papers of Thomas Gillespie, that John Rodman is most certainly not the John Rodman relevant to the letter of 1811. The cited South Carolina Rodman1 married Mary Jane Gillespie, the sister of Thomas Gillespie2 and died in South Carolina in 1832.3 The relevant John Rodman was a New York attorney, as I will show.

John Fenno founded and published the Gazette of the United States4 in New York City in 1789, moved to Philadelphia, and after several name changes became the United States Gazette.5 It was a Hamiltonian Federalist paper, and Alexander Hamilton contributed financial assistance and articles under various pseudonyms.6 James Madison and Thomas Jefferson urged Philip Freneau to found the National Gazette,7 an opposing paper also in Philadelphia.

John Rodman (the relevant one) married Harriet Fenno,8 the daughter of John Fenno.

John Rodman returned from France around 1811.9 Completely fluent in French,10 in 1814 he published his book, The Commercial Code of France, translated from the French,11 with explanatory notes, and a complete analytical index. Rodman was the District Attorney for New York County from 1815-1817.12 Gulian Verplanck, a Congressman from New York, was his brother-in-law.13 David Bailie Warden was a consul to Paris who was removed by Minister to France Gen. John Armstrong in 1810.14 Armstrong in turn was replaced in 1810.15 Warden had some useful connections to the likes of Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, and Eliza Parke Custis16 (granddaughter of Martha Washington). Using his connections, Warden returned to France in 1811.17 Warden gave “aid in the personal affairs of New York attorney and merchant John Rodman (1775-1847) during his stay in France prior to 1811.”18

Following a lengthy visit to France with his daughter, Rodman returned to the United States in 1818.19 In May 1821, President Monroe appointed Rodman to the position of collector of the port of St. Augustine, Florida.20 In 1822, he wrote to his daughter, “I have had a complete set of the Spanish laws in six large volumes sent to me from the Havana. These books I am obliged to study in the original, as the Spanish laws, in civil causes, are still in force here.”21

Rodman left his collector position around 1845 and returned north. He died in New Brunswick, New Jersey in February, 1847.22

James Bowdoin was Ambassador to Spain. While in France, he requested that Armstrong seek an invitation for him to a birthday event for the emperor. The French declined as such invitations were for accredited ministers to France and Bowdoin was only accredited to Spain. Bowdoin complained to Armstrong. Armstrong responded at length, ending with “General Armstrong hopes that Mr. B will hereafter look out for some new subject upon whom to discharge the irritations of ill-health or ill humor. He is completely weary of being the subject of either.”

In a dispatch to Madison, Armstrong indicated “he had received information that an agent in Madrid named McClure, representing a company of Liverpool merchants, was attempting to purchase the Floridas for eleven million dollars, allegedly to establish a huge slave depot there.” That may, or may not, have been the same McClure subsequently detained as an English prisoner of the French.

What is critical to understand about the McClure case and how Publius resolved the question of whether McClure was a “Citizen of the United States” is that it supports my position in which I have steadfastly argued that the early naturalization acts applied not only to children born out of the United States but also to children born in the United States and treated any child born in the United States to alien parents to be an alien also. Given these Congressional statutes, we can reasonably conclude that our nation did not adopt the English common law jus soli concept of citizenship, but rather the law of nation’s jus sanguinis.

This appears to be based on that same scholarship and research which suggested that two random dudes named Rodman and McClure mentioned in the papers of some random dude named Gillespie, was relevant and indicative of due diligence.


132 posted on 01/16/2024 4:33:31 PM PST by woodpusher
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To: woodpusher; DiogenesLamp; Ultra Sonic 007

Forget all the McClure stuff. It is so convoluted and the motivations are so confusing that nothing is as it seems. Both Madison and Armstrong wanted McClure kept in a French prison for reasons not related to his citizenship.

In July, 1807 Madison wrote to Armstrong that the negotiations with Spain for the purchase of the Floridas might have to be suspended if war with Britain came about.

“In this state of things the President taking into consideration the objections to an application of the public funds to objects not immediately connected with the public safety, instructs you to suspend the negotiation for the purchase of the floridas, unless it shall be agreed by Spain, that payment for them shall in case of a rupture between Great Britain and the United States be postponed till the end of one year after they shall have settled their differences; and that in the mean time no interest shall be paid on the Debt.” Madison to Armstrong July 15th, 1807

https://founders.archives.gov/?q=Correspondent%3A%22Madison%2C%20James%22%20Correspondent%3A%22Armstrong%2C%20John%2C%20Jr.%22&s=1111311111&r=26

Armstrong then wrote to Madison about a plan to purchase the floridas before the U.S. could.

“There is now at Madrid a naturalized American, with respect to whom and his business, it becomes my duty to put you on the alert. This Man’s name is McClure. He is at once the Cap. of an American registered Ship and a proprietor in East Florida, characters not very reconcileable. Professing to have much intimacy with the Prince of Peace and a great variety of means to accomplish his objects with that Minister, he organized (as I am credibly informed) while here, a society for the purpose of out-bidding the U. S. in the purchase of the Floridas. The extent to which they proposed to go was eleven millions of dollars, ten of which were to be given to Spain and one to the Prince of P___e as a doceur. The subscription was left here to be filled, while he proceeded to Madrid & prepared things and persons for its arrival. This information was given by A. Vail, a consul of the U. S. for the port of L’Orient, to a person of respectability whom he invited to join in the Speculation & who communicated it to me. Vail is the Agent of McClure in prosecuting a prize cause here. You will best know, what use can be made of this discovery at Madrid.” Armstrong to Madison, September 4th, 1807

https://founders.archives.gov/?q=Correspondent%3A%22Madison%2C%20James%22%20Correspondent%3A%22Armstrong%2C%20John%2C%20Jr.%22&s=1111311111&r=32

Armstrong himself was accused of land speculation in Florida which he denied. The U.S. consul Aron Vail mentioned in Armstrong’s letter away also speculating in Florida real estate. His widow filed a claim with Congress after the Adams-Onís Treaty with Spain gave the Floridas to the US.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Journal_of_the_House_of_Representatives/rQNFAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=aron+vail+widow+petitions+congress+reimburse&pg=PA75&printsec=frontcover


135 posted on 01/16/2024 7:03:20 PM PST by 4Zoltan
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