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To: woodpusher; DiogenesLamp; Ultra Sonic 007

Forget all the McClure stuff. It is so convoluted and the motivations are so confusing that nothing is as it seems. Both Madison and Armstrong wanted McClure kept in a French prison for reasons not related to his citizenship.

In July, 1807 Madison wrote to Armstrong that the negotiations with Spain for the purchase of the Floridas might have to be suspended if war with Britain came about.

“In this state of things the President taking into consideration the objections to an application of the public funds to objects not immediately connected with the public safety, instructs you to suspend the negotiation for the purchase of the floridas, unless it shall be agreed by Spain, that payment for them shall in case of a rupture between Great Britain and the United States be postponed till the end of one year after they shall have settled their differences; and that in the mean time no interest shall be paid on the Debt.” Madison to Armstrong July 15th, 1807

https://founders.archives.gov/?q=Correspondent%3A%22Madison%2C%20James%22%20Correspondent%3A%22Armstrong%2C%20John%2C%20Jr.%22&s=1111311111&r=26

Armstrong then wrote to Madison about a plan to purchase the floridas before the U.S. could.

“There is now at Madrid a naturalized American, with respect to whom and his business, it becomes my duty to put you on the alert. This Man’s name is McClure. He is at once the Cap. of an American registered Ship and a proprietor in East Florida, characters not very reconcileable. Professing to have much intimacy with the Prince of Peace and a great variety of means to accomplish his objects with that Minister, he organized (as I am credibly informed) while here, a society for the purpose of out-bidding the U. S. in the purchase of the Floridas. The extent to which they proposed to go was eleven millions of dollars, ten of which were to be given to Spain and one to the Prince of P___e as a doceur. The subscription was left here to be filled, while he proceeded to Madrid & prepared things and persons for its arrival. This information was given by A. Vail, a consul of the U. S. for the port of L’Orient, to a person of respectability whom he invited to join in the Speculation & who communicated it to me. Vail is the Agent of McClure in prosecuting a prize cause here. You will best know, what use can be made of this discovery at Madrid.” Armstrong to Madison, September 4th, 1807

https://founders.archives.gov/?q=Correspondent%3A%22Madison%2C%20James%22%20Correspondent%3A%22Armstrong%2C%20John%2C%20Jr.%22&s=1111311111&r=32

Armstrong himself was accused of land speculation in Florida which he denied. The U.S. consul Aron Vail mentioned in Armstrong’s letter away also speculating in Florida real estate. His widow filed a claim with Congress after the Adams-Onís Treaty with Spain gave the Floridas to the US.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Journal_of_the_House_of_Representatives/rQNFAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=aron+vail+widow+petitions+congress+reimburse&pg=PA75&printsec=frontcover


135 posted on 01/16/2024 7:03:20 PM PST by 4Zoltan
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To: 4Zoltan; woodpusher; DiogenesLamp; Ultra Sonic 007

The National Archives has the following letter which resolved the McClure case.

Joel Barlow Esq. Department of State
Paris Nov. 27, 1811

Sir
I have the honor to enclose several affidavits and certificates just handed to me by Mr. Cheves the Representative in Congress from the City of Charleston proving that James McClure now detained in France as a British Prisoner of War was born in Charleston since the Revolution. To these Papers is annexed a Certificate of W[illiam] Johnson Esq. one of the Justices of the Supreme Court of the United States before whom the affidavits were taken stating “that agreeable to the laws and usage of the United States, the said affidavits and Certificates are sufficient to establish the fact that James M McClure above named is a Citizen of the United States.” As such he must be considered by this Government. You will therefore interpose your good offices in his behalf and obtain his release from confinement as soon as possible.

I have [the honor]
James Monroe

Justice William Johnson in his dissent in Shanks v DuPont wrote this about the laws of South Carolina - “By an act of the state passed in 1712, the common law of Great Britain was incorporated into the jurisprudence of South Carolina. In the year 1782, when this descent was cast, it was the law of the land …”


136 posted on 01/16/2024 7:38:15 PM PST by 4Zoltan
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To: 4Zoltan
Forget all the McClure stuff. It is so convoluted and the motivations are so confusing that nothing is as it seems. Both Madison and Armstrong wanted McClure kept in a French prison for reasons not related to his citizenship.

This is exactly correct. But they were using "citizenship" as the excuse to do it.

“There is now at Madrid a naturalized American, with respect to whom and his business, it becomes my duty to put you on the alert. This Man’s name is McClure....

This is the communication I previously discovered. I don't recall seeing Madison's response.

Madison's inaction in directing Armstrong to reclaim McClure implies that Madison was okay with McClure being held on a pretense.

What *I* gathered from this is that Madison was willing to ignore principles for political benefit. I see this again with Madison's 40 year later letter rejecting the claims that He and the Virginia ratification committee made in their ratification statement. (That Virginia could resume the powers they gave up.)

I count this as two examples of Madison talking out of both sides of his mouth.

Madison appears to be willing to advocate whatever course of action he sees as most politically beneficial to Himself.

138 posted on 01/17/2024 8:16:41 AM PST by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty.")
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