[Pelham]

“The treasonous bastard was directly responsible for the deaths of some 600,000 Americans.”

Funny how well that description can be applied to Lincoln.

The Confederacy wanted independence. The same thing that their fathers and grandfathers gained from King George.

The King issued a proclamation declaring all of the Colonial rebels to be traitors and rebels. Which they were

Lincoln, like George before him, wanted submission and obedience to the central government and was willing to kill as many Americans as it required to get that.

Most people can read a map. Where the battlefields are tells you who was defending their land versus who was the aggressor.

[wardaddy]

Crickets

[jmacusa]

Oh Christ your back.

Lincoln didn't undertake secession, the South did. Lincoln didn't open fire on Ft. Sumter(and don't give that hogwash about the resupply boats being warships),the South did. The South wanted war. Confederate guerrillas had started as much with their "Bleeding Kansas"" campaign.

[BroJoeK]

jmacusa referring to RE Lee: "The treasonous bastard was directly responsible for the deaths of some 600,000 Americans.”

Pelham: "Funny how well that description can be applied to Lincoln."
The Confederacy wanted independence.
The same thing that their fathers and grandfathers gained from King George."

Setting RE Lee aside for the moment, here is a table comparing conditions in the 1776 era Revolution with those of 1860s Civil War:

Comparing 1776 era to 1860s

Condition to Compare	1776 Revolutionary War	1861 Civil War
The rebelling party had voluntarily ratified the national constitution	No	Yes
The rebelling party was fully represented in the national government:	No	Yes
The rebelling party had previously dominated national politics for over 60 years:	No	Yes
The rebelling party had repeatedly petitioned for redress of grievances:	Yes	No
War was declared and waged against the rebelling party long before it delcared its independence.	Yes	No
The rebelling party made clear the necessity of separation due to abuses, usurpations and war waged against them:	Yes	No
The rebelling party declared independence based on "all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights":	Yes	No

Condition to Compare	1776 Revolutionary War	1861 Civil War
The rebelling party made clear in their documents of separation that their main concern was protecting chattel slavery of the African race:	No	Yes
The rebelling party was overrepresented in its constitutional republic due to the 3/5 of slaves rule:	No	Yes
Spokesmen for the rebelling party declared slavery was the "cornerstone" of their new republic:	No	Yes
The rebelling party declared tariffs were the "real reason" for disunion:	No	No
The rebelling party declared "Northeastern power brokers" and "money flows from Europe" and "free trade" were the "real reasons" for disunion & war:	No	No
The rebelling party waited over a year after being declared in rebellion before declaring themselves independent.	Yes	No
The war began when the Empire (or Union) tried to seize American militia weapons:	Yes	No
The war began when Rebels assaulted & forced surrender of Union forces in a Union fort:	No	Yes
The Empire (or Union) issued a formal "Declaration of Rebellion" a year before rebels declared independence:	Yes	No
The rebelling party issued a formal "Declaration of War" and granted their leader dictatorial war powers:	No	Yes
The rebelling party invaded the Empire (or Union's) homeland with large forces many times:	No	Yes
The Empire (or Union) offered rebel slaves freedom in exchange for military service (1775 Dunmore):	Yes	No
Rebels soon responded by also promising slaves freedom in exchange for military service:	Yes	No
The Empire (or Union) granted slaves unconditional freedom in states then in rebellion (1779 Phillipsburg):	Yes	Yes
The Empire (or Union) opposed slavery on moral grounds:	No	Yes
During & after the war rebels began to abolish slavery voluntarily:	Yes	No

Pelham: "Lincoln, like George before him, wanted submission and obedience to the central government and was willing to kill as many Americans as it required to get that.
Most people can read a map. Where the battlefields are tells you who was defending their land versus who was the aggressor."

In the Civil War's first year there were as many battles fought in Union states & territories as in the Confederacy, and as many Confederate soldiers died in battles in the Union as died in battles in the Confederacy.

Union states & territories which Confederate forces invaded included:

1. Maryland
2. Pennsylvania
3. West Virginia
4. Kentucky
5. Ohio
6. Indiana
7. Missouri
8. Kansas
9. Oklahoma
10. New Mexico

As late as the summer & fall of 1864, Confederates were still invading Union states of Maryland, West Virginia, Missouri and Kansas.