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To: kabar

Where to start?

Zelensky has already said Ukraine is not going to become a NATO member. Moreover, neither Turkey nor Hungary would vote for Ukraine’s admission; and without a unanimous vote of all the member nations a candidate can’t get in.

As for Cuba, we had no issue with Soviet troops in Cuba, nor did we have any issue with defensive weapons in Cuba. What we had an issue with was the Soviets introducing into Cuba OFFENSIVE nuclear missiles capable of striking the entirety of the lower 48 of the US (with the exception of a small slice in the Pacific northwest), all of Mexico and Central America and the Caribbean, and most of South America.

As for the Warsaw Pact, you seem to lack the facts. The 1956 Hungarian Revolution involved an uprising against the Stalinist regime in Hungary. A new prime minister, Imre Nagy, took office on October 24, 1956 and announced the new government’s intent to WITHDRAW Hungary from the Warsaw Pact and establish free elections, and the Soviets ordered the Red Army in Hungary to quash the uprising. Then, on November 1, 1956 Nagy formally announced Hungary’s withdrawal from the Warsaw Pact and declared Hungary’s neutrality, and the Soviets invaded. It should be noted that just a few weeks earlier Poland had made a similar move for neutrality, and that movement was readily crushed. Hungary thought its chances of success were better than Poland’s. Hungary did NOT invite the Soviets to invade.

You mention a proxy war. Yes, Ukraine is a proxy war for the West; just as Korea was a proxy war by the Soviets and initially a proxy war by the ChiComs until the ChiComs decided to actively join the fight; and just as Vietnam was a proxy war by the Soviets and the ChiComs. Proxy wars have been around since antiquity, and are rather common. Almost all wars have an element of a proxy war. It is how the game is played.

How, I am firmly opposed to having US boots on the ground in Ukraine in a combat role and/or US helmets in the air over Ukraine in a combat role.

“I gave you Kennan’s reaction. Intentional or not, Russia believed it was a commitment from the US and the rest of the national leaders engaged in the talks to unify Germany.”

Nonsense. Even Gorbachev — who was there — said there was no commitment.


119 posted on 02/24/2023 11:09:03 AM PST by ought-six (Multiculturalism is national suicide, and political correctness is the cyanide capsule. )
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To: ought-six
Zelensky has already said Ukraine is not going to become a NATO member. Moreover, neither Turkey nor Hungary would vote for Ukraine’s admission; and without a unanimous vote of all the member nations a candidate can’t get in.

Source please. Has Zelensky said that Ukraine will never join NATO? Has it been added to the Ukrainian Constitution? Has Ukraine withdrawn from its partnership with NATO? Has NATO renounced that partnership designation of 2020? Has Zelensky included his no-NATO policy in his peace plan?

As for Cuba, we had no issue with Soviet troops in Cuba, nor did we have any issue with defensive weapons in Cuba. What we had an issue with was the Soviets introducing into Cuba OFFENSIVE nuclear missiles capable of striking the entirety of the lower 48 of the US (with the exception of a small slice in the Pacific northwest), all of Mexico and Central America and the Caribbean, and most of South America.

LOL. Are Russian submarines armed with nuclear missiles stationed off the coast of the US in international waters (12 mile limit) an offensive threat? What should we do about it? The US has used the Monroe Doctrine on multiple occasions to establish a sphere of influence. The Russians are doing the same thing in Ukraine. It does not want a NATO controlled Ukraine along their 1,500 mile common border.

Remember when the Obama/Biden administration cancelled the stationing of missile defense systems in Poland and the Czech Republic under pressure from Russia?

As for the Warsaw Pact, you seem to lack the facts. The 1956 Hungarian Revolution involved an uprising against the Stalinist regime in Hungary. A new prime minister, Imre Nagy, took office on October 24, 1956 and announced the new government’s intent to WITHDRAW Hungary from the Warsaw Pact and establish free elections, and the Soviets ordered the Red Army in Hungary to quash the uprising. Then, on November 1, 1956 Nagy formally announced Hungary’s withdrawal from the Warsaw Pact and declared Hungary’s neutrality, and the Soviets invaded.

On 23 October 1956, the Secretary of the Hungarian Working People's Party, Ernő Gerő, asked for the USSR's military intervention in order "to suppress a demonstration that was reaching an ever-greater and unprecedented scale", which threatens the national security of the Hungarian People's Republic. To that end, the USSR already had planned the invasion and occupation of Hungary, and the political purging of Hungarian society.

So why didn't Eisenhower respond by helping the nascent free country of Hungary?

You mention a proxy war. Yes, Ukraine is a proxy war for the West; just as Korea was a proxy war by the Soviets and initially a proxy war by the ChiComs until the ChiComs decided to actively join the fight; and just as Vietnam was a proxy war by the Soviets and the ChiComs. Proxy wars have been around since antiquity, and are rather common. Almost all wars have an element of a proxy war. It is how the game is played.

Proxy wars don't always work out as expected. Nor does the rationale for entering them age well. It isn't a game. Our blood and treasure are invested along with the future of this country.

How, I am firmly opposed to having US boots on the ground in Ukraine in a combat role and/or US helmets in the air over Ukraine in a combat role.

But the policies you support can result in that happening. We are prolonging an unwinnable war. Russia has drawn red lines because Russia shares a 1,500 mile border with Ukraine. They are not going to back down. We need a negotiated settlement sooner rather than later if we really care about the Ukrainian people. Like a trainer who sees his fighter hopeless outmatched with too much courage for his own good, it is time to throw in the towel and stop the fight.

121 posted on 02/24/2023 5:39:34 PM PST by kabar
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