Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

To: DiogenesLamp; woodpusher

“Who else you got?”

In chronological order:

1777
George Washington
Requiring that only “natives” make up his personal guards.

1785
Maryland and Massachusetts legislatures naturalizing foreigners with the rights of natural born citizens.

1785/1786
John Adams and Thomas Jefferson drafting a treaty of commerce with the term “natural born citizens of the United States”.

1787
Framers debating if only “natives” should be allowed as members of Congress. James Wilson opposes the requirement since he and other Framers are not natives (BTW, the grandfather clause avoided this problem).

1788
James Iredell
President must be a native.

1788
Thomas Jefferson to John Jay
“Native citizens, on several valuable accounts, are preferable to Aliens, and to citizens alien-born.”

1789
James Madison
Place of birth is the most certain criteria for allegiance.
“all those persons who are natives of America, but who took part against the revolution, [are] citizens of the United States”

1795
Congressman Zephaniah Swift
The children of aliens born in Connecticut are natural born subjects.

1795
Congressman James Hillhouse
Aliens can come to the United States refuse to be naturalized and their children would be natural born citizens.

1799
George Nicholas
Poor to the Constitution the people of the states consisted of either natural born citizens (born in the state) or aliens (born outside the state).

1825
William Rawle

1826
James Kent
“As the president is required to be a native citizen of the United States”

1830
Supreme Court Justice William Johnson
Shanks became a natural born citizen of South Carolina on July 4th, 1776

None of these individuals from the Founding period use the terms “natives, or natural born” in a way that could be based on Vattel’s two citizen parents definition. But in a way which could be based on Blackstone’s definition of natives or natural born.


198 posted on 12/30/2022 7:23:52 AM PST by 4Zoltan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 194 | View Replies ]


To: 4Zoltan
1777 George Washington Requiring that only “natives” make up his personal guards.

That supports my position.

1785 Maryland and Massachusetts legislatures naturalizing foreigners with the rights of natural born citizens.

Adoption of children does not make those children "natural born."

1785/1786 John Adams and Thomas Jefferson drafting a treaty of commerce with the term “natural born citizens of the United States”.

Already addressed that up above. I think they were more interested in brevity than accuracy.

1787 Framers debating if only “natives”

Your successive references to "natives" supports my position.

1789 James Madison Place of birth is the most certain criteria for allegiance. “all those persons who are natives of America, but who took part against the revolution, [are] citizens of the United States”

Madison is on both sides of this issue. As president, he refused to recognize the citizenship of James McClure, though McClure was born in Charleston after 1776.

1795 Congressman Zephaniah Swift The children of aliens born in Connecticut are natural born subjects.

Subjects yes. Citizens no. and Zephaniah Swift doesn't appear to have been one of the ratifying convention delegates for Connecticut. Not a good authority.

1795 Congressman James Hillhouse

Also doesn't seem to be a member of Connecticut's ratifying convention. Not a good authority.

1799 George Nicholas Poor to the Constitution the people of the states consisted of either natural born citizens (born in the state) or aliens (born outside the state).

First guy you mentioned that might actually have some first hand knowledge of what was meant. For him i'm thinking he was simplifying for brevity, and not concerned with precision, same as Adams and TJ. He is likely using the term "state" to mean "the government" as opposed to any particular physical state. As in "l'état, c'est moi"

1825 William Rawle

We already know he was lying.

1826 James Kent “As the president is required to be a native citizen of the United States”

Doesn't contradict my position.

1830 Supreme Court Justice William Johnson Shanks became a natural born citizen of South Carolina on July 4th, 1776

Oh good. You found an example of what I told you regarding the Supreme court's belief that citizenship began July 4,1776. I assume this comes from Shanks vs Dupont?

I don't remember the context of this one, and i'm not going to look it up.

You've got mostly a collection of nobodies. The only somebody you have is Madison, and he is problematic. He seems to favor whatever interpretation was most politically favorable to him at the time.

When he supported his friend William Loughton Smith, he advocated the British method, but when he was refusing to recognize the citizenship of James McClure, he was following the Vattel method.

202 posted on 12/30/2022 12:17:21 PM PST by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 198 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson