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To: 4Zoltan
1777 George Washington Requiring that only “natives” make up his personal guards.

That supports my position.

1785 Maryland and Massachusetts legislatures naturalizing foreigners with the rights of natural born citizens.

Adoption of children does not make those children "natural born."

1785/1786 John Adams and Thomas Jefferson drafting a treaty of commerce with the term “natural born citizens of the United States”.

Already addressed that up above. I think they were more interested in brevity than accuracy.

1787 Framers debating if only “natives”

Your successive references to "natives" supports my position.

1789 James Madison Place of birth is the most certain criteria for allegiance. “all those persons who are natives of America, but who took part against the revolution, [are] citizens of the United States”

Madison is on both sides of this issue. As president, he refused to recognize the citizenship of James McClure, though McClure was born in Charleston after 1776.

1795 Congressman Zephaniah Swift The children of aliens born in Connecticut are natural born subjects.

Subjects yes. Citizens no. and Zephaniah Swift doesn't appear to have been one of the ratifying convention delegates for Connecticut. Not a good authority.

1795 Congressman James Hillhouse

Also doesn't seem to be a member of Connecticut's ratifying convention. Not a good authority.

1799 George Nicholas Poor to the Constitution the people of the states consisted of either natural born citizens (born in the state) or aliens (born outside the state).

First guy you mentioned that might actually have some first hand knowledge of what was meant. For him i'm thinking he was simplifying for brevity, and not concerned with precision, same as Adams and TJ. He is likely using the term "state" to mean "the government" as opposed to any particular physical state. As in "l'état, c'est moi"

1825 William Rawle

We already know he was lying.

1826 James Kent “As the president is required to be a native citizen of the United States”

Doesn't contradict my position.

1830 Supreme Court Justice William Johnson Shanks became a natural born citizen of South Carolina on July 4th, 1776

Oh good. You found an example of what I told you regarding the Supreme court's belief that citizenship began July 4,1776. I assume this comes from Shanks vs Dupont?

I don't remember the context of this one, and i'm not going to look it up.

You've got mostly a collection of nobodies. The only somebody you have is Madison, and he is problematic. He seems to favor whatever interpretation was most politically favorable to him at the time.

When he supported his friend William Loughton Smith, he advocated the British method, but when he was refusing to recognize the citizenship of James McClure, he was following the Vattel method.

202 posted on 12/30/2022 12:17:21 PM PST by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty.")
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To: DiogenesLamp

You missed this one.

1788
Thomas Jefferson to John Jay
“Native citizens, on several valuable accounts, are preferable to Aliens, and to citizens alien-born.”

Jefferson was writing to suggest that only citizens and in particular “[n]ative citizens” be appointed as US consuls to foreign countries.

But by Vattel’s definition there were no native citizens over the age of about 12. I think Jefferson had some one older in mind.

Same with Washington. He wanted bodyguards who were older than 1 year olds.

They could not be using Vattel’s definition for natives (born in the country to parents who were citizens). But they could be using Blackstone’s definition of natives (born in the country).


203 posted on 12/30/2022 3:37:30 PM PST by 4Zoltan
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