Posted on 09/18/2022 3:27:35 PM PDT by jjotto
We have the genes in my family, too, actually from two Jewish sides.
“The article I am posting from the Time of Israel is clearly stating Jews were to be killed.”
No where does it say they were to be killed for not converting.
“How much clearer do you need that to be said, Vlad?”
A lot clearer since it doesn’t say what you were claiming: “They force converted you to Catholic or you either had to leave to the New World or be killed.”
There was no New World to go at the time of the decree to as Bayard just point out.
And who was killed? Anyone?
Jews were not killed for not converting.
“I said some went to other places, then there.”
Oh, so now the story changes again.
Let’s look at your original bogus claim shall we: “They force converted you to Catholic or you either had to leave to the New World or be killed.”
Other places you say?
The article literally says “illegal to be Jewish…on pain of death.”
Is that concise enough for you?
An ultimatum "convert or die" does not exist in the actual document. Its actually "deport or die."
Also it is notable that they were to be unmolested in deportation and disposition.
And so that the said Jews and Jewesses during the stated period of time until the end of the said month of July may be better able to dispose of themselves, and their possession, and their estates, for the present we take and receive them under our Security, protection, and royal safeguard, and we secure to them and to their possessions that for the duration of the said time until the said last day of the said month of July they may travel and be safe, they may enter, sell, trade, and alienate all their movable and rooted possessions and dispose of them freely and at their will, and that during the said time, no one shall harm them, nor injure them, no wrong shall be done to them against justice, in their persons or in their possessions, under the penalty which falls on and is incurred by those who violate the royal safeguard. And we likewise give license and faculty to those said Jews and Jewesses that they be able to export their goods and estates out of these our said kingdoms and lordships by sea or land as long as they do not export gold or silver or coined money or other things prohibited by the laws of our kingdoms, excepting merchandise and things that are not prohibited.
There was not a forced conversion program.
If you stayed, you had to be converted or die.
If you went, you could stay Jewish.
It’s that simple.
“Is that concise enough for you?”
No, because that’s NOT WHAT THE DECREE says. And the issue is people being executed for not converting.
Here are your words: “They force converted you to Catholic or you either had to leave to the New World or be killed.”
“
Those criticizing the expulsion of the Jews from Spain need to ultimately confront this simple question: What exactly were the Jews doing that the entire Spanish government wanted them all out? Did the Spanish just willy nilly suddenly decide “we decided to not like Jews today” or was there actually a reason for them taking drastic measures?
Not simple logic at all since from the moment of the decree, it would be hard to take seriously any conversion to Christianity. So its not a program for converts. The Decree itself never spells out you had to be converted. No word conversion exists, no exhortation to embrace Catholicism.
However, I’d give you that there would possibly be some who would lie about their Jewish Faith, and then be baptized. But that isn’t compulsion to join a faith, it is someone who would desire their property over their religion. At the time, even the Jewish Community would have abandoned such an individual.
It would be worth looking into the cases of inquisitions. It should be noted however, that during the entire life of the Spanish Inquisition, Every kingdom of the world engaged in persecution of religious minorities.
But looking into Spanish Aragon, for example, 100 years of cases of Inquisition from 1540-1640, found about 942 accusations of being a Marrano, which was about 3.6% of total cases involving false-conversions.
Well, considering that David had 2 dozen wives and a bunch of concubines, and Solomon had 300 wives and 700 concubines, and considering the dispersal of Jews throughout the world, there’s probably a whole bunch of “sons of David” running around. I know that the legitimate line was pruned down by Athaliah (only Josiah survived), but there had to be a whole lot of bastards out there.
Interesting. I knew Spain was talking about doing it for the past several years. My ex’s Jewish family fled Spain around that time for Russia, then fled for the US during the reign of Czar Nicholas.
Yea, records created and maintained by the Catholic Church. Such records are not reliable. Many years ago, I had a German tell me the victims of the Holocaust were highly exaggerated. And the Turks say the same about the Armenian Death March.
Apples and oranges.
Context includes not just records but historical context.
These would be secret records and critically examined alongside existing journals and letters of the period.
Nazi's and German's in 1930-40's are not a sufficient parallel, because The Inquisition existed for hundreds of years in a world and culture completely different from the modern period.
“Yea, records created and maintained by the Catholic Church. Such records are not reliable.”
Every historian in the world - every single one - considers the inquisition records to be reliable on basic facts, numbers, dates, locations, and judicial proceedings that happened.
That’s why inquisition records are so highly prized by historians -BECAUSE THEY ARE RELIABLE.
“By most standards, the records of the Spanish Inquisition are spectacularly good and a treasure trove for social historians as they record many details ..” - so says James Hannam who is a professional historian and has read hundreds of books and articles on the subject whereas you’ve done zero research. https://jameshannam.com/inquisition.htm
Great catch!
Yep, the Spanish
Yes the Protestant nut ball rulers were so much better.
Like the British rulers that for hundreds of years killed priest and Catholics that refused to renounce the Pope.
Like the French Revolutionary leaders that murdered 300 thousand of the Vendee because they would not renounce the Catholic Church.
After 600 years of war for freedom from the Muslim invaders I think that the Spanish reaction is reasonable.
In many ways it is kinder than the De-Nazification of Germany post WWII.
I see you have a July 2022 sign in date.
Go back to the Democrat Underground with your fellow Jew haters.
I don’t know what the rules were, but I do know people who do.
The Mexican Inquisition was actually a not insignificant part of the Texas revolution, as Protestants and Jews fled Mexico for Texas with promises of religious freedom, which were ultimately proven to be lies.
Having met MWT in real life, he might be best able to expand, given his ancestor was burned at the stake for being Jewish in Mexico.
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