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To: Boogieman; Jewbacca

I find it an interesting turning point in “Russian” as opposed to “East Slavic/Kievan Rus” history the time when Ivan Grozny (the terrible) destroyed Novgorod.

Novgorod was a northern “republic” and far, far frier than Moscow.

Moscow’s Dukes got their power by being tax-collectors for the Mongol Khagan. Alexander Nevsky, the great Moscow “saint” fought against the West on behalf of the Great Khans..
Later the “Dukes” became “Grand Dukes” and took over more and more land from the Mongol Khaganate.
As the Khaganate split into the Golden Horde-Chagatai-Ilkhanate-Yuan etc., the Muscowites took their chance, absorbing more of the splinters.

The Grand Dukes became Caesars (Tsars) when Constantinople fell. And then they went on to become Mongol Khagans with the collapse of the Yuan at the same time.

Muscowy is the inheritor of the absolutist rule of the Great Khans. If Novgorod had won (not theoretically possible), then “Russian” history would have been quite different


84 posted on 09/15/2022 1:35:16 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: Cronos

“If Novgorod had won (not theoretically possible), then “Russian” history would have been quite different”

Well, when I play Europa Universalis IV I can win with Novgorod. Not easy, but it can be done if you pounce on Muscovy at just the right time, usually when they are tied up fighting someone else. But then Novgorod just becomes Russia, because you are basically forced to expand in the same direction, since you cannot challenge Scandinavia or Poland-Lithuania for a long time, and once you expand that way, you end up having all the same problems and enemies that Russia historically had.


90 posted on 09/15/2022 7:47:37 AM PDT by Boogieman
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