Posted on 07/27/2022 6:26:03 AM PDT by Red Badger
There are electric powered aircraft now, flying in the experimental category, but the experience of Starship tells us there will never be an electric passenger-carrying aircraft. The FAA won't allow it.
Starship started life as a great Burt Rutan idea, and the prototype showed great promise as a cheap, fast business jet alternative. Then the FAA got their hooks into it during the certification process.
The result was an overweight, unduly complex looser that was far more expensive and performed far worse than existing aircraft in that class, eg. Beech King Air.
In the electric plane situation, that same FAA will impose such a heavy structure that useful electric flight will not be possible.
.. landing weight same..
And with global warming the air density will be lower so no flying on hot days or to places at higher elevation. Maybe just fly at night? Definitely no IMC, anti ice is an energy hog.
That would be one heck of an extension cord.
I agree with you...there will never be an electric transport plane.
The weight of the structure is not the only issue. Full compliance with FAR Part 25 is required of all transport planes.
Below is a link to FAR Part 25:
AIRWORTHINESS STANDARDS: TRANSPORT CATEGORY AIRPLANES
For those not interested in the link, here's the paragraph titles. In the link above, each paragraph title is a link to the paragraph:
Note: Paragraph 25.867 Fire protection: other components
One can only imagine the fire protection required for a battery fire.
25.1 Applicability
25.2 Special retroactive requirements
25.3 Special provisions for ETOPS type design approvals
25.5 Incorporations by reference
25.21 Proof of compliance
25.23 Load distribution limits
25.25 Weight limits
25.27 Center of gravity limits
25.29 Empty weight and corresponding center of gravity
25.31 Removable ballast
25.33 Propeller speed and pitch limits
25.101 General
25.103 Stall speed
25.105 Takeoff
25.107 Takeoff speeds
25.109 Accelerate-stop distance
25.111 Takeoff path
25.113 Takeoff distance and takeoff run
25.115 Takeoff flight path
25.117 Climb: general
25.119 Landing climb: All-engines-operating
25.121 Climb: One-engine-inoperative
25.123 En route flight paths
25.125 Landing
25.143 General
25.145 Longitudinal control
25.147 Directional and lateral control
25.149 Minimum control speed
25.161 Trim
25.171 General
25.173 Static longitudinal stability
25.175 Demonstration of static longitudinal stability
25.177 Static lateral-directional stability
25.181 Dynamic stability
25.201 Stall demonstration
25.203 Stall characteristics
25.207 Stall warning
25.231 Longitudinal stability and control
25.233 Directional stability and control
25.235 Taxiing condition
25.237 Wind velocities
25.239 Spray characteristics, control, and stability on water
25.251 Vibration and buffeting
25.253 High-speed characteristics
25.255 Out-of-trim characteristics
25.301 Loads
25.303 Factor of safety
25.305 Strength and deformation
25.307 Proof of structure
25.321 General
25.331 Symmetric maneuvering conditions
25.333 Flight maneuvering envelope
25.335 Design airspeeds
25.337 Limit maneuvering load factors
25.341 Gust and turbulence loads
25.343 Design fuel and oil loads
25.345 High lift devices
25.349 Rolling conditions
25.351 Yaw maneuver conditions
25.361 Engine and auxiliary power unit torque
25.362 Engine failure loads
25.363 Side load on engine and auxiliary power unit mounts
25.365 Pressurized compartment loads
25.367 Unsymmetrical loads due to engine failure
25.371 Gyroscopic loads
25.373 Speed control devices
25.391 Control surface loads: General
25.393 Loads parallel to hinge line
25.395 Control system
25.397 Control system loads
25.399 Dual control system
25.405 Secondary control system
25.407 Trim tab effects
25.409 Tabs
25.415 Ground gust conditions
25.427 Unsymmetrical loads
25.445 Auxiliary aerodynamic surfaces
25.457 Wing flaps
25.459 Special devices
25.471 General
25.473 Landing load conditions and assumptions
25.477 Landing gear arrangement
25.479 Level landing conditions
25.481 Tail-down landing conditions
25.483 One-gear landing conditions
25.485 Side load conditions
25.487 Rebound landing condition
25.489 Ground handling conditions
25.491 Taxi, takeoff and landing roll
25.493 Braked roll conditions
25.495 Turning
25.497 Tail-wheel yawing
25.499 Nose-wheel yaw and steering
25.503 Pivoting
25.507 Reversed braking
25.509 Towing loads
25.511 Ground load: unsymmetrical loads on multiple-wheel units
25.519 Jacking and tie-down provisions
25.521 General
25.523 Design weights and center of gravity positions
25.525 Application of loads
25.527 Hull and main float load factors
25.529 Hull and main float landing conditions
25.531 Hull and main float takeoff condition
25.533 Hull and main float bottom pressures
25.535 Auxiliary float loads
25.537 Seawing loads
25.561 General
25.562 Emergency landing dynamic conditions
25.563 Structural ditching provisions
25.571 Damage—tolerance and fatigue evaluation of structure
25.581 Lightning protection
25.601 General
25.603 Materials
25.605 Fabrication methods
25.607 Fasteners
25.609 Protection of structure
25.611 Accessibility provisions
25.613 Material strength properties and material design values
25.619 Special factors
25.621 Casting factors
25.623 Bearing factors
25.625 Fitting factors
25.629 Aeroelastic stability requirements
25.631 Bird strike damage
25.651 Proof of strength
25.655 Installation
25.657 Hinges
25.671 General
25.672 Stability augmentation and automatic and power-operated systems
25.675 Stops
25.677 Trim systems
25.679 Control system gust locks
25.681 Limit load static tests
25.683 Operation tests
25.685 Control system details
25.689 Cable systems
25.693 Joints
25.697 Lift and drag devices, controls
25.699 Lift and drag device indicator
25.701 Flap and slat interconnection
25.703 Takeoff warning system
25.721 General
25.723 Shock absorption tests
25.729 Retracting mechanism
25.731 Wheels
25.733 Tires
25.735 Brakes and braking systems
25.737 Skis
25.751 Main float buoyancy
25.753 Main float design
25.755 Hulls
25.771 Pilot compartment
25.772 Pilot compartment doors
25.773 Pilot compartment view
25.775 Windshields and windows
25.777 Cockpit controls
25.779 Motion and effect of cockpit controls
25.781 Cockpit control knob shape
25.783 Fuselage doors
25.785 Seats, berths, safety belts, and harnesses
25.787 Stowage compartments
25.789 Retention of items of mass in passenger and crew compartments and galleys
25.791 Passenger information signs and placards
25.793 Floor surfaces
25.795 Security considerations
25.801 Ditching
25.803 Emergency evacuation
25.807 Emergency exits
25.809 Emergency exit arrangement
25.810 Emergency egress assist means and escape routes
25.811 Emergency exit marking
25.812 Emergency lighting
25.813 Emergency exit access
25.815 Width of aisle
25.817 Maximum number of seats abreast
25.819 Lower deck service compartments (including galleys)
25.820 Lavatory doors
25.831 Ventilation
25.832 Cabin ozone concentration
25.833 Combustion heating systems
25.841 Pressurized cabins
25.843 Tests for pressurized cabins
25.851 Fire extinguishers
25.853 Compartment interiors
25.854 Lavatory fire protection
25.855 Cargo or baggage compartments
25.856 Thermal/Acoustic insulation materials
25.857 Cargo compartment classification
25.858 Cargo or baggage compartment smoke or fire detection systems
25.859 Combustion heater fire protection
25.863 Flammable fluid fire protection
25.865 Fire protection of flight controls, engine mounts, and other flight structure
25.867 Fire protection: other components
25.869 Fire protection: systems
25.871 Leveling means
25.875 Reinforcement near propellers
25.899 Electrical bonding and protection against static electricity
25.901 Installation
25.903 Engines
25.904 Automatic takeoff thrust control system (ATTCS)
25.905 Propellers
25.907 Propeller vibration and fatigue
25.925 Propeller clearance
25.929 Propeller deicing
25.933 Reversing systems
25.934 Turbojet engine thrust reverser system tests
25.937 Turbopropeller-drag limiting systems
25.939 Turbine engine operating characteristics
25.941 Inlet, engine, and exhaust compatibility
25.943 Negative acceleration
25.945 Thrust or power augmentation system
25.951 General
25.952 Fuel system analysis and test
25.953 Fuel system independence
25.954 Fuel system lightning protection
25.955 Fuel flow
25.957 Flow between interconnected tanks
25.959 Unusable fuel supply
25.961 Fuel system hot weather operation
25.963 Fuel tanks: general
25.965 Fuel tank tests
25.967 Fuel tank installations
25.969 Fuel tank expansion space
25.971 Fuel tank sump
25.973 Fuel tank filler connection
25.975 Fuel tank vents and carburetor vapor vents
25.977 Fuel tank outlet
25.979 Pressure fueling system
25.981 Fuel tank ignition prevention
25.991 Fuel pumps
25.993 Fuel system lines and fittings
25.994 Fuel system components
25.995 Fuel valves
25.997 Fuel strainer or filter
25.999 Fuel system drains
25.1001 Fuel jettisoning system
25.1011 General
25.1013 Oil tanks
25.1015 Oil tank tests
25.1017 Oil lines and fittings
25.1019 Oil strainer or filter
25.1021 Oil system drains
25.1023 Oil radiators
25.1025 Oil valves
25.1027 Propeller feathering system
25.1041 General
25.1043 Cooling tests
25.1045 Cooling test procedures
25.1091 Air induction
25.1093 Induction system icing protection
25.1101 Carburetor air preheater design
25.1103 Induction system ducts and air duct systems
25.1105 Induction system screens
25.1107 Inter-coolers and after-coolers
25.1121 General
25.1123 Exhaust piping
25.1125 Exhaust heat exchangers
25.1127 Exhaust driven turbo-superchargers
25.1141 Powerplant controls: general
25.1142 Auxiliary power unit controls
25.1143 Engine controls
25.1145 Ignition switches
25.1147 Mixture controls
25.1149 Propeller speed and pitch controls
25.1153 Propeller feathering controls
25.1155 Reverse thrust and propeller pitch settings below the flight regime
25.1157 Carburetor air temperature controls
25.1159 Supercharger controls
25.1161 Fuel jettisoning system controls
25.1163 Powerplant accessories
25.1165 Engine ignition systems
25.1167 Accessory gearboxes
25.1181 Designated fire zones; regions included
25.1182 Nacelle areas behind firewalls, and engine pod attaching structures containing flammable fluid lines
25.1183 Flammable fluid-carrying components
25.1185 Flammable fluids
25.1187 Drainage and ventilation of fire zones
25.1189 Shutoff means
25.1191 Firewalls
25.1192 Engine accessory section diaphragm
25.1193 Cowling and nacelle skin
25.1195 Fire extinguishing systems
25.1197 Fire extinguishing agents
25.1199 Extinguishing agent containers
25.1201 Fire extinguishing system materials
25.1203 Fire detector system
25.1207 Compliance
25.1301 Function and installation
25.1302 Installed systems and equipment for use by the flightcrew
25.1303 Flight and navigation instruments
25.1305 Powerplant instruments
25.1307 Miscellaneous equipment
25.1309 Equipment, systems, and installations
25.1310 Power source capacity and distribution
25.1316 Electrical and electronic system lightning protection
25.1317 High-intensity Radiated Fields (HIRF) Protection
25.1321 Arrangement and visibility
25.1322 Flightcrew alerting
25.1323 Airspeed indicating system
25.1324 Angle of attack system
25.1325 Static pressure systems
25.1326 Pitot heat indication systems
25.1327 Magnetic direction indicator
25.1329 Flight guidance system
25.1331 Instruments using a power supply
25.1333 Instrument systems
25.1337 Powerplant instruments
25.1351 General
25.1353 Electrical equipment and installations
25.1355 Distribution system
25.1357 Circuit protective devices
25.1360 Precautions against injury
25.1362 Electrical supplies for emergency conditions
25.1363 Electrical system tests
25.1365 Electrical appliances, motors, and transformers
25.1381 Instrument lights
25.1383 Landing lights
25.1385 Position light system installation
25.1387 Position light system dihedral angles
25.1389 Position light distribution and intensities
25.1391 Minimum intensities in the horizontal plane of forward and rear position lights
25.1393 Minimum intensities in any vertical plane of forward and rear position lights
25.1395 Maximum intensities in overlapping beams of forward and rear position lights
25.1397 Color specifications
25.1399 Riding light
25.1401 Anticollision light system
25.1403 Wing icing detection lights
25.1411 General
25.1415 Ditching equipment
25.1419 Ice protection
25.1420 Supercooled large drop icing conditions
25.1421 Megaphones
25.1423 Public address system
25.1431 Electronic equipment
25.1433 Vacuum systems
25.1435 Hydraulic systems
25.1438 Pressurization and pneumatic systems
25.1439 Protective breathing equipment
25.1441 Oxygen equipment and supply
25.1443 Minimum mass flow of supplemental oxygen
25.1445 Equipment standards for the oxygen distributing system
25.1447 Equipment standards for oxygen dispensing units
25.1449 Means for determining use of oxygen
25.1450 Chemical oxygen generators
25.1453 Protection of oxygen equipment from rupture
25.1455 Draining of fluids subject to freezing
25.1457 Cockpit voice recorders
25.1459 Flight data recorders
25.1461 Equipment containing high energy rotors
25.1501 General
25.1503 Airspeed limitations: general
25.1505 Maximum operating limit speed
25.1507 Maneuvering speed
25.1511 Flap extended speed
25.1513 Minimum control speed
25.1515 Landing gear speeds
25.1516 Other speed limitations
25.1517 Rough air speed, VRA
25.1519 Weight, center of gravity, and weight distribution
25.1521 Powerplant limitations
25.1522 Auxiliary power unit limitations
25.1523 Minimum flight crew
25.1525 Kinds of operation
25.1527 Ambient air temperature and operating altitude
25.1529 Instructions for Continued Airworthiness
25.1531 Maneuvering flight load factors
25.1533 Additional operating limitations
25.1535 ETOPS approval
25.1541 General
25.1543 Instrument markings: general
25.1545 Airspeed limitation information
25.1547 Magnetic direction indicator
25.1549 Powerplant and auxiliary power unit instruments
25.1551 Oil quantity indication
25.1553 Fuel quantity indicator
25.1555 Control markings
25.1557 Miscellaneous markings and placards
25.1561 Safety equipment
25.1563 Airspeed placard
25.1581 General
25.1583 Operating limitations
25.1585 Operating procedures
25.1587 Performance information
25.1701 Definition
25.1703 Function and installation: EWIS
25.1705 Systems and functions: EWIS
25.1707 System separation: EWIS
25.1709 System safety: EWIS
25.1711 Component identification: EWIS
25.1713 Fire protection: EWIS
25.1715 Electrical bonding and protection against static electricity: EWIS
25.1717 Circuit protective devices: EWIS
25.1719 Accessibility provisions: EWIS
25.1721 Protection of EWIS
25.1723 Flammable fluid fire protection: EWIS
25.1725 Powerplants: EWIS
25.1727 Flammable fluid shutoff means: EWIS
25.1729 Instructions for Continued Airworthiness: EWIS
25.1731 Powerplant and APU fire detector system: EWIS
25.1733 Fire detector systems, general: EWIS
25.1801 SFAR No. 111—Lavatory Oxygen Systems
Appendix A to Part 25
Appendix B to Part 25
Appendix C to Part 25
Appendix D to Part 25
Appendix E to Part 25
Appendix F to Part 25
Appendix H to Part 25—Instructions for Continued Airworthiness
Appendix I to Part 25—Installation of an Automatic Takeoff Thrust Control System (ATTCS)
Appendix J to Part 25—Emergency Evacuation
Appendix K to Part 25—Extended Operations (ETOPS)
Appendix L to Part 25—HIRF Environments and Equipment HIRF Test Levels
Appendix M to Part 25—Fuel Tank System Flammability Reduction Means
Appendix N TO Part 25—Fuel Tank Flammability Exposure and Reliability Analysis
Appendix O to Part 25—Supercooled Large Drop Icing Conditions
“...On December 17, 1903, the Wright brothers launched the era of human flight...” [deport, post 79]
The Wrights weren’t even close to being first. Not even the first heavier-than air aviators.
In November 1783, Pilatre de Rozier undertook the first free flight carrying a human, on board a hot air balloon built by Joseph-Michel Montgolfier and Jacques-Étienne Montgolfier.
On 1 December 1783, the first ascent by humans aboard a hydrogen-filled balloon occurred in Paris, France.
Ascents did not remain trivial very long. Two men carried by a balloon crossed the English Channel on 7 January 1785. The first air disaster followed in May 1785, when a balloon crashed into a town in Ireland, igniting a fire than destroyed some 100 houses.
In 1794, the French observed movements of Austrian forces from a balloon. During the American Civil War, Thaddeus S C Lowe made a number of ascents in surveillance of Confederate forces.
German inventor Franz Leppich attempted to interest Napoleon’s French government in attack via airship; after the French turned him down, he approached the Russians, and actually began construction of prototypes. One ascended, but its human oarsmen could not generate sufficient power to fly into the wind.
The first manned dirigible flew in 1852, powered by a steam engine. The first dirigible powered by an internal combustion engine flew in 1898.
During the Franco-Austrian War (1859) and the Franco-Prussian War (1870-71), Napoleon III’s forces lofted observation balloons. The Prussians became concerned enough to build specialized anti-aircraft guns.
The Wrights could not lay claim to launching the first heavier-than-air flight. Many others predated them, but documentation is spotty; the best known example is Hiram S Maxim, who designed and built a large flying machine powered by a 300 hp steam engine. During trial runs in 1894, it actually lifted its restraining rails off the ground. A crash was narrowly averted.
Wilbur & Orville Wright are properly celebrated for their research & development in controllability, systems engineering, and propeller design/construction. Their work paved the way for later advances in aerodynamics and aeronautics.
You may be onto something, power the planes with large capacitors and skilfully place lightning conductors and collection plates on the surface of the plane.... of course, the pilots would have to be protected from Arc flash.../silliness
“More EV-Everything Fantasy Porn. Nothing more.”
Yep. It is amazing. All these airlines falling all over each other to buy some prototype electric planes. Startup companies building electric planes. For what???
Basically to get WOKE bragging rights. Nothing more.
You’re not accounting for the FAA’s coming “Emergency Use Authorization” to fast track electric planes. They are going to borrow the FDA’s method. If it works for “vaccines,” it’s good enough for commercial aircraft.
After all, we ARE in a Climate Emergency and we need to “do something.”
Battery fire at sea level ain’t too cool either. No pun intended. What about lightning strikes?...?
I’ll work on that.
Why would anyone in their right mind go to a startup company that has never built anything for a lightweight generator let alone an electric airplane?
The world and the people in it are incredibly screwed up.
Granted.
Nice work if you can get it!
A GRANT that is!........................😜
The biggest problem, naturally, was running out of battery.
Grants are what run such charades. The bet is that they may make something of the effort and get lucky.
My uncle ad two wooden legs. He burned to the ground.
Wouldn’t that be assault with a battery?
The madness continues.
I’m ashamed to see the company that I worked 32.5 years for is leading the Woke Parade.
I’m glad that I will never be assigned to be in Command of an electric airplane.
Are you telling me you have got gas?
{{{{HUGS}}}}
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