Latest Surface Navy Sleep Policy Aims for Better-Rested, More Alert, Healthier Crews

U.S. Naval Institute ^ | January 29, 2022 | Gidget Fuentes

[Retain Mike]

Surface warfare reforms crafted to improve mariner skills and manage demand for ships are trickling into the fleet five years after two fatal collisions in the Western Pacific forced the Navy to retool how the service trains the surface fleet.

Multiple investigations and criminal prosecutions found that basic failures in seamanship and ship handling led to the June 17, 2017, early morning collision between USS Fitzgerald (DDG-62) and ACX Crystal off the coast of Japan. Seven sailors died.

Two months later, a misunderstanding of a newly installed throttle control system led to USS John McCain (DDG-56) drifting out of a ship separation scheme outside of Singapore and colliding with merchant tanker Alnic MC. Ten sailors died.

[shotgun]

What’s the problem? Don’t they drive the ship for 12 hours then shut it down and then crew sleeps for the other 12 hours? /S

[msrngtp2002]

Say what you will but 20 years of engine room service taught me a few things about leadership. First of all I went above and beyond to protect those who worked for me. That meant that while we were only staffed for 4/8 watch standing nothing required that we also work an 8 hour day. I had watch standers do routine maintenance, cleaning, and painting. When they were off they were off. Only time we had a full crew in the engine room was during drills and gq events that generally happened once a month or so. I got more done that way than having overly worn out crew members due to lack of rest. I didn’t care what they did when off but most either slept or rested in other ways. It wasn’t about being macho or how tough I could make them...it was about taking care of them so they were available when needed. Sometimes we did have to work long hours to fix things but those times were not the norm.

All this talk from the navy is cya stuff. Good leaders take care of their subordinates.

[Retain Mike]

On our ship we always worked and trained hard, and we had several great captains who made sure we were good at the basics. Everyone quickly learned how to stay alert and stay focused. Not much time for anything else. It paid off many times and especially on November 1, 1968 as noted in the link below.

USS Westchester County LST-1167

www.navsource.org/archives/10/16/161167.htm

[A Navy Vet]

"Maybe lack of sleep for John McCain was the cause he killed over 100 sailors on his carrier deck. Bad hangover may have played a part."

McCain had nothing to do with the Forrestal fire, although he was in his cockpit at the time, so I've read. The video and the investigation concluded that a static charge lit off a missile while being loaded on another aircraft. That hit another plane and the conflagration ensued. It's possible that the AO types didn't ground properly due to lack of sleep. Don't know.

I remember seeing the video of that in boot camp like it was yesterday. The sight of a CPO running out with a wimpy PKP extinguisher when another missle or plane fuel went off and obliterated him. That always stuck in my mind when doing flight deck fire-fighting drills. I can still see in my mind's eye that Chief just disappearing.

Navy guys, tell me where I may be wrong. It's been a long time.

[A Navy Vet]

"When you are out to sea, it’s 12 on 12 off seven days a week, plus a 4 hour watch every third day"

In my day (75-86), it depended on what department/division/rating for watch standing and work duties. It wasn't as simple as you describe. 12 off? Please, never had such a thing.

With respect, tell that to the flight deck personnel right here. Maybe the Mess cooks, Admin types, Boatswains mates had such a rotation. I never saw it being an airdale.

[rlmorel]

True. As much as I despise McCain for what he has done to this country, that isn’t something that can be hung on his neck. (As much as many of us would have wanted something hung on his neck)

I do have a history with McCain (however slight) as he was the CO of my training squadron while I was there a few months, and I do have an additional connection to him and the fire, spending my hitch in the Navy in VA-46 (which was the squadron McCain was in when the fire occurred) so they had institutional memory of it.

I have heard all kinds of stories, that McCain was horsing around intentionally doing hot starts and set something off, but it isn’t true. It simply isn’t. Full stop.

They knew where the Zuni came from, how and why of the accidental discharge, and the path of the missile across the flight deck into the drop tank of his A-4, spilling the contents onto the flight deck where it caught fire. I have heard he accidentally jettisoned his WWII era degraded 1000 lb. bombs onto the flight deck (I have only heard this from people on the Internet who weren’t there) but even if he did, it wouldn’t have made a whit of difference. Those bombs were going to cook off whether on the wing mounts or rolling around on the flight deck, but...I don’t even think the jettisoning accusation is true.

I became interested in this incident and have read more than most people on it, and McCain was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

There is a lot to dislike him for and blame on him, but this isn’t one of them.

[Retain Mike]

When I came onboard both the CO and XO had completed previous in country tours. They were great men who took their assignments REALLY seriously.

[Retain Mike]

When I came onboard both the CO and XO had completed previous in country tours. They were great men who took their assignments REALLY seriously.

[Mariner]

Our Port and Starboard was usually 8 on, 8 off...which we would change to 12-12 after a couple of weeks of boredom...and fatigue.

Then back to 8-8.

All maintenance was done on the watch schedule, or on the 12 off.

I did 103 consecutive days at sea in the Arabian Sea on USS Tarawa...got the two beers.

Radio shack.

But the schedule was same throughout the ship.

[rlmorel]

I remember doing 12 on/12 off 7 days a week at sea, but our deployments were NOTHING like others have gone through. I understand today they may go a month or two without a port call, and their deployments are eight months or longer...or so I am told.

In the Seventies, they simply didn’t have enough money to allow ships to steam around and fly airplanes, so we made a lot of port calls...mostly Naples, being a 6th Fleet sailor. Our deployments to the Med were usually around 6 months, IIRC.

But when we were out at sea flying planes, I don’t recall standing watches unless we weren’t flying, and then the watches were of the flight deck security kinds, checking tie-downs and such. But it could be my memory. I honestly only remember standing watches like that, or otherwise when we were ashore or in port.

I do recall working longer than 12 hours on occasion, such as the day we were about 500 miles off the coast of Scotland heading to the Arctic Circle for some NATO exercise, and we had a Tomcat go over the side.

It was a big to-do, and the funny thing is...we had two major incidents in one day, and I was sleeping in a plane on the flight deck for both of them! (I was a young guy and should have been full of vim and vigor, but I always felt chronically short of sleep, so I tried to sleep everywhere I could, which was often inside the cockpit of my assigned plane)

When that Tomcat went over the side, I was sleeping in the cockpit of an A7 that was tied down parallel to the waist cat with the nose facing the island. I awoke when my whole plane shook violently from side to side, and turned just in time to see the twin tails and exhaust of a Tomcat disappear over the port side, with a boatload of flight deck personnel all running over to look into the water below.

Then, same day, later that night (maybe 2100-2300?) I was again sleeping in the cockpit of an A7, waiting to ride the brakes in case they had to move it, when I awoke to one of the silver asbestos-suited guys banging on the canopy of my plane with the nozzle of a fire extinguisher. Scared the crap out of me, and when I opened the canopy, he yelled that there had been a collision with a ship, and I better get below and report in.

Heh, the collision occurred right near me as my plane was spotted between the forward starboard elevator and the island with the tail pointed out over the water. They were refueling the USS Bordelon (which HAD to be right under me) and her superstructure got crunched by the JFK. (The JFK was apparently dangerous for smaller ships to be nearby)

The funny thing about this was, I always thought in my memory that those two things occurred on separate days, but...they both happened on the same day, September 14th, 1976. Odd that escaped me, but...such is the way the mind works. That is how I know that I must have been pulling double duty for some reason, because I was working the day shift at that time.

Anyway, most of the time I reported to my line shack/shop at 7 AM/PM, worked all day, and was free at 7 PM/AM depending on the shift with only flight deck security watches at sea when not flying.

Heh, when I was working nights, I think I went months eating nothing but breakfast food. Eating mid-rats at night, and breakfast when I got off, trying to sleep right up as close as I could get to 1900 without being late...thus missing dinner.

[rlmorel]

Gad. 103 consecutive days at sea. I had it easy, with lots of port calls, generally every two weeks, sometimes more.

I can’t complain about that.

[A Navy Vet]

Interesting. Again, didn't it depend on your department/division?

Ha! I also got the two beers while on LPH-11 in the Pacific during a 10 month extended deployment. They were like near beer, but tasted great. Fair seas...

[rlmorel]

When I was a young man in my late teens, I was a fanatical NFL fan, and would pace around the radio shack on Sundays until it opened, an arm shot out, and tacked a sheet with all the scores onto a board right outside the door.

Heh, in port, I used to have my ear glued to a transistor radio, going up and down the dial, looking for an english speaking voice that might have sounded like an NFL broadcast.

I know. Pathetic. But, what the hell else did I have to do but write letters and read?

[A Navy Vet]

"McCain was just in the wrong place at the wrong time."

Yup. I didn't know the missile hit McCain's fuel tank. I remember it hit A fuel tank, but not McCain's.

Was I correct about the CPO running towards the building conflagration with a PKP extinguisher? If so, more cojones than I would have had at the time. He was probably thinking, "this is stupid, stupid, stupid", yet he wanted to save his shipmates and his ship. Wonder if he ever got a posthumous award? The video is clear about his courage.

[joe fonebone]

You had it easy...
I was an airdale....
Attached to a squadron...
I was a plane captain...
Worked the flight deck....
Furthermore, I was attached to a “Q”. squadron....
8 Q squadrons, 12 carriers...
Do the math..
We were always out to sea....
2 months on shore was heaven

[rlmorel]

Yes...I believe there was an NCO who did just that when one of those degraded 1000 lb. bombs cooked off. Brave guy.

The Zuni came from an F-4 on the other side of the deck, flew across the deck, severed a guy's arm at the shoulder, and hit the centerline drop tank on McCain's A-4. (the off-target red arrow is my own mistake)