Posted on 03/05/2022 7:50:02 AM PST by CondoleezzaProtege
Russia's Vladimir Putin has criticized a recent European resolution assigning some blame to the Soviet Union in the outbreak of World War II.
Putin told soldiers that Allied policies of appeasement before the war broke out, for instance tolerating Germany's annexation of Czechoslovakia in 1938, were also to blame for the conflict and for the communist Soviet Union's decision to seek a deal with fascist Germany.
But he reserved particular criticism for Poland, alleging in particular that Poland's ambassador to Germany at the time was a Nazi sympathizer. "Essentially they colluded with Hitler. This is clear from documents, archival documents," Putin said…citing what he claimed were excerpts from the diary of Poland's ambassador, that the diplomat had promised to erect a statue in Hitler's honor to thank Germany for removing Jews from the country.
"A bastard, an anti-Semitic pig, you cannot put it any other way," Putin said.
This follows Poland expressing "concern and disbelief" over the weekend at similar comments from Putin on the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.
The topic is immensely sensitive in Russia and Poland alike. Russia often feels its contributions in World War II, accounting for well over half of Germany's military losses at a cost of almost 30 million Soviet lives, are underplayed or marginalized by other Allied powers. Putin said on Tuesday that the European Parliament's resolution was trying to eradicate the memory of the Soviet contribution to Allied victory.
"It is people like these who negotiated with Hitler — it is people like that who today are tearing down monuments to the liberating warriors, the Red Army soldiers who freed Europe and the European people from the Nazis…”
Poland, meanwhile, sees itself as betrayed on almost all sides at both the start and then the end of the war…
(Excerpt) Read more at amp.dw.com ...
Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness;
Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
- Isaiah 5:20
“From Stettin in the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic, an iron curtain has descended across the Continent. Behind that line lie all the capitals of the ancient states of Central and Eastern Europe. Warsaw, Berlin, Prague, Vienna, Budapest, Belgrade, Bucharest and Sofia, all these famous cities and the populations around them lie in what I must call the Soviet sphere, and all are subject in one form or another, not only to Soviet influence but to a very high and, in many cases, increasing measure of control from Moscow....
I have felt bound to portray the shadow which, alike in the west and in the east, falls upon the world. I was a minister at the time of the Versailles Treaty and a close friend of Mr. Lloyd-George, who was the head of the British delegation at Versailles. I did not myself agree with many things that were done, but I have a very strong impression in my mind of that situation, and I find it painful to contrast it with that which prevails now. In those days there were high hopes and unbounded confidence that the wars were over, and that the League of Nations would become all-powerful. I do not see or feel that same confidence or even the same hopes in the haggard world at the present time.
On the other hand I repulse the idea that a new war is inevitable; still more that it is imminent. It is because I am sure that our fortunes are still in our own hands and that we hold the power to save the future, that I feel the duty to speak out now that I have the occasion and the opportunity to do so.” - Winston Churchill
https://www.nationalchurchillmuseum.org/sinews-of-peace-iron-curtain-speech.html
“Looks like Poland could be the next target for Pukin”
Well Pukin does not want Nato on his border. After Russia takes Ukraine, Poland a Nato member would be on his border.
The Armenians and Jews and many others would disagree with you. Lenin was a bastard, Stalin was a bastard and Putin is one too - but it’s possible to overstate the case. For example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_of_Auschwitz_concentration_camp
The formal surrender of Nazi Germany on May 8, 1945, followed by the announcement of Japan’s surrender on August 15, 1945.
A very mean and lean 6’3” 200# of muscle, relative volunteered for our Army, when WWII was ending in Germany.
He became an MP with a specialty of neutralizing our former enemies and getting them to talk and turn others into the MP’s.
He spoke German and was a second generation German American. His Dad fought his German cousins in WWI, and in WWII, he turned many of his American German relatives into the FBI when they/we declared war on each other.
He did his job so well in post war, Berlin, he was sent to Japan when that war was over. Besides his general dislike of our enemies, he was a historian. He knew the hatred the Japanese and Chinese had for each other.
He found out the best way to get info from Japanese prisoners and their family members, post WWII.
Was telling them, that their families, that they would be sent to China for their war crimes and against the Chinese people. If they didn’t cooperate with the MPs.
That worked in most instances.
Poland has a lot of scores to settle with Russia: the partition of 1793, Trotsky’s Red Army invasion of 1920, Stalin’s stab in Poland’s back in 1939, and 40 years of Communist dictatorship. I would not bet on Russia taking on Poland and winning in 2022 or 2023.
I think that everyone here needs to take a step back and look at WW2 a bit more objectively. Before proceeding further, a little background on me: I am Jewish, with half of my family from Poland and the other half from 2 different cities in Ukraine (though they always considered themselves Russians). Luckily for for them (and me), my great grandparents and grandparents left and came here either just before WW1, or in the early 1920s. However, they all had family that didn’t get out and, as anyone with even a modest knowledge of history could guess, much of that family was murdered (the Poles and some of the Russians, by the Nazis) or brutalized and effectively imprisoned in a giant open-air prison for 3 generations (the Russians - and Stalin’s goons in the NKVD actually murdered my grandfather’s father in 1937). So not only has my family history compelled me to study that region of the world and the events surrounding WW1, WW2, the Russian Revolution and the Holocaust, but I am here to tell you that I have not one shred of sympathy for the Nazis, the Communists, anti-Semites from any country in that area or anyone who sympathizes with or apologizes for any of them - quite to the contrary, I have a white- hot burning hatred for them all.
HOWEVER, there is a critical role for objective truth. Anyone can be emotional or partisan (myself included), but to figure out how things actually are and to have a shot at finding a solution to problems, one must step back from personal feelings and look at just the facts.
WRT the issue at hand, blame for the start of WW2, there’s plenty to go around - PLENTY. The Western powers didn’t stop Hitler early on, when they could have easily done so - even up to 1938 this was true. Their constant appeasement only fed his appetite and his feeling that no one had the guts to stop him. The USSR wasn’t blameless, either. In the 1930s, well before the August, 1939 Pact, the Germans were testing tanks and aircraft there in violation of the Versailles Treaty. Of course, from the time the Pact was signed until June 22, 1941, the USSR provided Germany with immense amounts of critical materials, fuel and food. Thus, there’s plenty of blame to go around.
Now let’s get to what Putin was talking about - and try to be objective about it. After all, in every disagreement there are 2 sides…and then there’s the truth, usually (like 99% of the time) somewhere in between. Let’s also postulate that even an implacable enemy has a point of view that colors his words and actions - and while you can (and obviously do) disagree, you need to understand that POV if you are to deal intelligently with him.
Putin is reacting to a longstanding habit of the West to simply blame the USSR for everything, or to almost completely denigrate any Soviet contribution to defeating Hitler. Being as objective as possible, some of that criticism is valid, but the simple fact is that if Hitler had not invaded the USSR and it just watched events, then 3 million men, thousands of tanks and aircraft and immense resources would have been used against the West. As it is, they were turned on the USSR, and in defeating the Germans in the East, they inflicted about 80% of the casualties that the Germans suffered during the war. This cost the USSR something like 26 million dead and immense material destruction, the likes of which we can hardly imagine. They list more dead in the siege of Leningrad than the US did in the entire war from combat and disease - so one can understand why they are a bit touchy when uninformed idiots on our side denigrate their role in Germany’s defeat.
Now, OTOH, the Soviets/Russians/Putin have held (or at least put forth) the view that the West did almost nothing in comparison to the USSR. This is quite obviously false, and is clearly a crude reaction to the Western denigration of the Soviet contribution. First, we sent substantial aid to them via several routes, at high cost to many of our convoys; an argument can be made that this aid allowed Stalin to divert sufficient resources to stop the German offensive in 1942, and to set the stage for the Stalingrad victory (though no Soviet or Russian officials would or will ever admit so in public). We (the US and UK) forced the Germans to expend substantial men and materiel on battles in North Africa, Italy, throughout the Mediterranean and, ultimately when a 2nd front was created on D Day. Even before the invasion, enormous resources were expended to create fortifications, and dozens of divisions were unavailable for fighting in the East. Our campaign against the U-Boats and our bombing campaign against them together caused millions of casualties and set back German war production considerably, plus diverted close to a million men and large amounts of planes, guns and AA ammunition away from the Soviets. The entirety of resources used to research the V1 and V2 programs were also unavailable to use in development or production of weapons against the USSR..
In short, both the West and the Russians have been playing a game of whose d!@k is bigger WRT this issue - and it is not only childish, but both sides are wrong.
Now, all of you may despise Putin, probably more since he invaded Ukraine - and that’s perfectly fine and natural, and he earned that. For my part, I previously admired his strong advocacy for his nation (that’s what leaders SHOULD do), even while knowing that his methods were quite brutal (which, though it is typical for a Russian or Soviet leader, isn’t acceptable). But especially since the invasion, I also despise him. I see many towns and cities where my family lived (and, in the case of very distant cousins, probably still do), and I see him destroying them, destroying part of my past. I feel great sorrow and sympathy for not just my distant relatives, but for all Ukrainians who are going through this. None of this was necessary, and while the West pushed Russia into a corner by aggressively expanding NATO to the East despite agreements not to do so, Putin gave the orders to start this war. He could have done much more to help his nation and its neighbors, but he chose this path. But despite what we think of Putin as a person or as a leader, his statements in the context of the subject at hand are not entirely wrong. Bad people aren’t always wrong, just as good people aren’t always right - and in the case of who or what countries are responsible for WW2, there are lots of objective facts that at least partially back him up.
Imagine it’s September 1939, here on FR. What would the discussions been like. A couple of things. A lot of conservatives of the time were driven by a white hot hatred of FDR. Also many despised Britain as well. And many thought that while Hitler was a bad guy, he was just trying to rectify the evils of the Versailles Treaty. And some would have blamed Poland, and point out Poland’s history of antisemitism, and her stubbornness to give up Danzig. Also Poland threatened Germany when she allied with Britain and France. And you certainly would have had some echoing the sentiments of Lindbergh about Jewish influence.
The parallels between then and now are striking.
That is EXACTLY what is coming once they feel the have Ukraine mostly take, they will keep moving. He wants a new Soviet Union. he must be stopped one way or another.
I feel he won’t be stopping at the Ukraine; but OTOH, his troops are not showing fighting abilities very well.
He should be asked about the Katyn massacre.
When "we" are in the mix, it means American dollars, military equipment, and thousands of lives of the children of the American middle class. It's time to put the lives of BLM, Antifa, and illegal aliens at risk first. Get some skin in the game.
The declaration of war by Russia on Japan certainly entered into the deliberations of surrender talks. The Japanese did not want to surrender any territory to the Russians. Still, the BOMB had to be the primary consideration once its power was fully understood.
And after Russia took over Poland, the NKVD rounded up all political leaders and executed them.
Very well written!
Told you Poland was next... He just needs to pocket Ukraine first or he’ll over-extend.
You are absolutely correct - there are some very striking parallels between now and the immediate pre-WW2 period. The reason for that is history moves in a series of cycles. I don’t know if you have heard of a book called The Fourth Turning, but it is based upon the thesis that once every 80 or so years there is a major crisis or series of crises which afflict this nation, and which that particular generation has to rise up to handle. The first was the Revolution, the second the Civil War, the third the Depression and WW2; the fourth is upon us.
Note that 80 years corresponds very closely to a human lifetime. I would make the argument that the authors of that book made, which is that human beings forget the lessons learned (oftentimes at great cost) by others. When a generation that went through a time of troubles has passed on into history, the new generation is very likely to repeat many of the same mistakes. Human emotions and human nature in general don’t change.
Reasonable people of reasonable intelligence acting in good faith have, do, and always will disagree with each other when looking at the exact same fact pattern. The same disagreements that people had before WW2 are fully on display today. Of course, it is not exactly the same, and the events of that period have been studied intensively, so SOME lessons have been learned (hence the near universal condemnation of Putin’s invasion). Time will tell here, but there’s also a lot going on that we don’t know - for example, how could that 40-mile long column of the Russian Army be bogged down for “lack of supplies” less than 100 miles from its border when this operation was planned for months? They may not be as adept at combined arms operations as us, but we’re not talking about amateurs here. That and some other things just don’t add up.
Thank you. I just want the FR discussion of these issues to not go off the rails with Putin hatred - that’s the childish, politically-driven, crap heard all over the media and from the Administration, and it is guaranteed to preclude a rational discussion that puts the interests of this country first.
Poland by itself right now would give the Russians a very bloody nose - and they are part of NATO, with many NATO troops already based there. Also, we just sold Poland 250 Abrams tanks, with delivery starting this year and final delivery next year. By the time Russia is able to “pocket” Ukraine, the Poles will be well-trained in their use. Unlike Ukraine, it has a capable Air Force.
Putin isn’t going after Poland, even if he has delusions about recreating the Czarist Empire or the USSR (and I am not buying into the media-driven nonsense that he is “crazy”).
Delivery starting this year?
So if Puting rolls up Ukraine by Spring he can roll right into Poland and seize all that nice new US made gear the Poles haven’t had time to learn to use yet...
And NATO is a toothless tiger.
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