Posted on 03/03/2022 11:39:27 AM PST by JOHN ADAMS
So many people who are posting actively on Ukraine argue as follows: 1. We all hate George Soros, Justin Trudeau and Klaus Schwab. 2. All of those people and many others whom we also despise support Zelensky and the Ukraine and oppose Putin. 3. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. 4. Therefore we should not oppose Putin’s actions in Ukraine and 5. Anyone who does oppose Putin is a neo-con fool who wants to send other people’s sons into a pointless and bloody war in Eastern Europe to a. Distract from other evil scheme they are carrying out including b. Advance the great reset.
By this reasoning the US should not have fought WW II and should not have opposed Hitler because Hitler was opposed to Stalin and Stalin was an evil communist.
This represents an adolescent understanding of foreign policy which assumes that the US should choose its enemies and allies on the basis of the moral complexion of the people who oppose them.
That is childish.
Discuss
We should’ve let the Stalinists and Nazis destroy each other.
It also wrong assumes that while they may be bad reasons, for either doing one thing, or for not doing one thing, that is not an argument that there are zero other alternative good reasons.
For instance, yes it is wrong to support Trump on the basis that some actual white supremacists support Trump, but that does not mean there are zero good reasons for supporting Trump.
And in a similar vein some “conservative” sites and posters here have made the claim and innuendo that the leader of Ukraine has a relationship with the WEF (world economic forumn) and therefor (on that basis) it is wrong to support Ukraine against Putin, which totally ignores how close Putin is to the WEF and its leader.
ALL of that nonsense is distraction from the fact that Putin is a dictator wanting to expand his personal Empire and since 2008 has been on a slow roll to try to rebuild the old Soviet empire on his terms, and Ukraine is in the way of that.
Stalin was only 5’5”. Hard to believe that shrimp had the entire USSR by the throat.
THe funny thing is, there were probably people back then who said exactly this, they will all deny it afterwards but I’m sure there were anti-communists back then who cheered Hitler attack the USSR.
Of course there were also a bunch of leftists who cheered Hitler on until he attacked the USSR, who all later denied they were Hitler fanboys.
Exactly.
There are no “good guys” in this war which is rapidly moving towards a mass slaughter. The neocons love to poke the Russian bear to get another European war started, the Biden crime family would love the money train to keep rolling with 10% for the Big Guy, and Soros and the globalists are 100% behind Ukraine. In addition, Putin seems to be losing his mind with this fantasy of restoring the old Russian Empire of 300 years ago.
No good guys, only fallen human nature asserting itself in a most horrible way. Please God they don’t start in with the nukes.
JimRob you are the host of this wonderful forum so if you weigh in I feel I should respond.
What animated my post is the thought that we have to make exactly the kind of judgment you make here - not who is pure and who is evil but who among the actors and choices we actually face is the best option. Stalin was an evil, evil man. But we made common cause with him because it was the better choice. We didn’t just say he’s an evil commie fascist bastard - which he unquestionably was - so f him and we’ll say home.
“...Europe’s wars have been pushing borders back and forth for over a thousand years, and they never needed our help in doing it...”
For example... Poland’s history of seesaw martial conflicts is simply that it was good ground for cavalry engagements. Periodically the princes of Europe would have contests to test each others worthiness and tactical skills at the commoners expense.
Since Britain also declared war on Japan, there was no longer restraints on aiding Britain, only a matter of time before the Germans sank another ship, and that would have been the Casus Belli for declaring war on Germany, even if Hitler didn’t declare war on the US.
You make good points about the need for projection of power in the modern world. Obviously, I don't think the war in the Ukraine is the right place for that presently.
I will add as an aside, at the risk of (perhaps appropriately) seeming pessimistic, I fear our own nation is currently run by lunatics and evil people.
“When the owners fight, their slaves suffer.” - Ukrainian Saying
It’s telling though that the two nations that most benefitted from our support during WWII: Russia and China, eventually became our enemies afterwards.
It’s why my theory is that, should NATO go to war with Russia, the country that stands to gain the most is Turkey, and then they will become our enemy afterwards, as they try to rebuild the Ottoman Empire.
Thank you. I was about to post this exact point...his summary of the argument is a straw man.
Stalin - the father of Antifa.
Idiotic post. I am pro- Ukraine independence. You want to support senile, bush league Hitlerite dictators like Putin.
You know what. I don’t give a shit how much Putin has been “provoked”. That’s his tough luck.
ooops. I misread your post. But what I said stands.
“but I am highly confident it’s not true now. I think our choice now is between the US leading a world order or lunatics and evil people doing so in ways that pose a grave threat to us.”
Evil prospers when good men do nothing.
NO, THAT DOES NOT MEAN we get involved in every conflict, as do gooder busybodies. But it is not all or nothing. We can at least give moral support. I support the Ukrainian people to have the freedom to choose their own destiny, PERIOD. I hate bullies and thugs that prey on those weaker.
“Stalin was only 5’5”. Hard to believe that shrimp had the entire USSR by the throat.”
Average male height was less back then, Stalin was not much below average.
Defense Minister Tariq Aziz was an okay guy tho.
Antifa was the communists that Hitler was fighting. Nothing has changed.
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