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To: BenLurkin

Well, Finland was one of Germany’s allies in WWII. Not a forced one either.


3 posted on 01/25/2022 3:45:38 PM PST by Seruzawa ("The Political left is the Gwarden of Eden of incompetence" - Marx the Smarter (Groucho))
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To: Seruzawa

Finns hate Russians. It was “an enemy of my enemy is my friend” thing. They faced a Hobson’s choice between two despicable regimes.


7 posted on 01/25/2022 3:54:36 PM PST by riverdawg (Wells Fargo is my bank and I have no complaints.)
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To: Seruzawa

“Well, Finland was one of Germany’s allies in WWII. Not a forced one either.”

The USSR invaded Finland in November 1939 after Finland refused Russian demands for territory and demilitarization as ‘necessary security measures’ to protect the USSR. Finland ended up aligning with Germany because German was the only country willing to help them rearm against the Soviet threat.

Absent the Soviet invasion of Finland in 1939 the Finns would have remained at least neutral in WW2 and perhaps even allied with the West.


8 posted on 01/25/2022 3:57:30 PM PST by MercyFlush (DANGER: You are being conditioned to view your freedom as selfish)
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To: Seruzawa

It’s a bit more complicated


9 posted on 01/25/2022 3:57:36 PM PST by BRL
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To: Seruzawa
Well, Finland was one of Germany’s allies in WWII. Not a forced one either.

Yes, Finland was forced. Forced into it by Stalin.

Finland was attacked by Russia in 1939. So naturally, Finland and Germany had common interests in fighting Russia.

What was Finland supposed to do? Allow Russia to invade, rape Finland's women, murder its men, enslave its children?

10 posted on 01/25/2022 3:59:18 PM PST by Angelino97
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To: BenLurkin; Seruzawa; riverdawg; MercyFlush; BRL; Angelino97; dfwgator; chopperk; marktwain; ...

I admire the Finns, for several reasons. Before I address one specific reason, I will assert categorically: No nation has done more harm by promoting homoeroticism (for there is no such thing as homosexuality) than the United States of America. To condemn the people of Finland is to focus on the Mote in their Eye while ignoring the Log (no pun intended) in the American Eye!

Now on to that one specific reason:

It is incorrect that Finland was a political ally of Germany (in the ideological sense).

It is incorrect that no other country came to their aid (in a practical, non-partisan sense).

The Finns were facing an existential crisis. Russia invaded Finland in 1939, and at that time Russia and Germany essentially had a mutual non-interference pact. Finland survived the Winter War of 1940, but Russia violated the armistice with the Continuation War, starting in 1941. Prior to entering the war, the United States prematurely declared the Brewster F2A-1 (later code-named Buffalo by the British) “obsolete” so that they could make them available as a civilian “export” model to Finland without being accused of acting as a belligerent.

These 44 F2A-1 fighters, re-designated B-239 as a de-navalized, de-rated (lower-horsepower) export model, became the front-line fighter for Finland into 1944, during the worst of the Continuation War. These aircraft attained one of the highest kill-to-loss ratios in military aviation history, rivaling that of the American Volunteer Group (The Flying Tigers) under Claire Chennault. It was finally relegated to second-line use in 1944, in part due to losses and parts shortages, but also to the availability of late-model Messerschmitt Bf-109G fighters, which were faster. Only eight of the 44 Brewsters survived the war.

Most of the highest-ranking aces in Finland flew the type; there were a total of 36 Brewster aces. Eino Luukkanen, all-time Ace Number 3 (56 aerial combat victories), wrote a book called “Fighter Over Finland” (which I read in the English translation) that chronicled his experiences fighting in the skies against the Russians. The Russians flew not only their own Polikarpov, Mikoyen-Gurevich, Lavochkin, and Yakovlev fighters, but also Lend-Lease aircraft such as the Supermarine Spitfire, Hawker Hurricane, Curtiss Tomahawk/Warhawk (P-40), and Bell Airacobra (P-39) fighters. The Brewsters, piloted by superb pilots with good tactics, bested all types flown by the Russians. Luukanan rated the Brewster as one of the best aerobatic fighters he ever flew, “capable of violent and difficult maneuvers at high speed”. The Finns nick-named the Brewster the “Taivaan Helmi” (”Sky Pearl”), and even attempted to create a wood-metal hybrid version for domestic production. A Brewster remains on static display in a museum as a tribute to its role in helping Finland survive WWII: They consider the airplane to have made a pivotal contribution to Finland’s survival in the Continuation War.

The Brewster F2A Buffalo is one of the most underrated and unjustly maligned fighters in US history. It was the first cantilever monoplane with enclosed cockpit and retractable gear, and the first military airframe aerodynamically enhanced via wind tunnel testing.

It was a much superior flying machine to the Grumman F4F, which was very sturdy but was too stable a flying platform to be effective in a dogfight: The F2A was much more controllable and maneuverable, and a noticeably faster airframe (objectively proven when the F4F was fitted with exactly the same model of the same engine: the Wright Cyclone R-1820-40): With that engine, the XF2A-2 had a top speed of 326 mph, while the XF4F-5 had a top speed of 312 mph. The standard Wildcat benefited from an engine (the Pratt & Whitney Twin Wasp R-1830) with a two-stage supercharger; the single-stage supercharger in the Buffalo engine was its biggest weakness. But the Pentagon gave up on the type rather than develop it with a better engine – or simply a later version of the Wright Cyclone (as was used in the Goodyear version of the Wildcat).

The British test pilots officially classified the Buffalo Mk. I as a superior flying machine to both the Hawker Hurricane and the Supermarine Spitfire (both of which were famous in Europe for being maneuverable). That meant its handling, controllability, and maneuverability were superior, not its level flight maximum speed (which is part of what was called performance). The two British planes were faster at altitude – due largely to the two-stage Rolls Royce Merlin engine – and that had became the prime characteristic in the West when choosing a fighter design.

In the Pacific, the Buffalo only saw combat with the US once, at Midway, with the Marines – not the Navy. They were mostly F2A-3 models, a final version ruined by Federal and corporate bureaucracy, after the Navy gave up on the type’s development; it was a stretched and overloaded airframe without any added power, and was no longer very maneuverable. The Buffalos (and Wildcats) at Midway were heavily outnumbered, flown by brave but inexperienced American pilots against superior numbers of superior types flown by experienced flyers, including aces, from the China conflict.

The later export versions, B-339 and B-339-23, were both underpowered (in accordance with international limitations, including lower-octane fuel availability), and were overloaded with extra equipment. They were, as usual in the early Pacific Theater, heavily outnumbered by both Imperial Navy A6M Reisen (Zero/Zeke) and Army Ki-43 Hayabusa (Oscar) fighters.

A Marine commander from Midway vilified the type, and the label stuck forever after with all unquestioning academic historians who do no first-hand research. None of them then or later cared much about what happened in Finland: the only place where the Buffalo was given a fair chance, even though it was as heavily outnumbered there as in the Pacific.

(For reference, the RAF sent an elite squadron of new Spitfires flown by Battle of Britain veterans, including aces, to the Pacific, thinking they would teach the Japanese a lesson. Seventeen were shot down in two days! The Pacific Theater problem did not lie solely with the Buffalo.)

A US Navy WWII veteran pilot once wrote an article about this almost twenty years ago. He flew every major type in the Pacific in WWII: all American types (F2A, F4F, F6F, F4U), and flew against all of the major Japanese types. He asserted that the F2A-2 – the best version, with more power and less weight, highly maneuverable with a good climb rate – was the only American fighter that could have bested the Zero in a dogfight. (The spectacular F8F came too late to see combat.) He said that he and many other pre-war/early-war Navy pilots regretted the Pentagon decision to withdraw the F2A-2 from frontline service before the aircraft carriers steamed to the Pacific.

Unfortunately for both plane and the company, Grumman – a larger company with a longer track record and better management – won out over Brewster, and the F2A-2 was withdrawn from frontline service by the Navy before it could see any combat in the Pacific. (A few of the worn-out and poorly maintained airframes at Midway were Dash-2s, but most were dash-3s.)

The Wildcat served a vital role in the first half of the war in the Pacific Theater, but the Brewster (specifically the F2A-2) could equally have served in that role. The Wildcat was never faster nor more maneuverable than its opponents, so simply denouncing the Brewster as obsolescent is specious: The F4F was also obsolescent from the very start of its service compared to the most modern competing types.


25 posted on 01/25/2022 7:41:43 PM PST by YogicCowboy (I know what I like, and like what I know.)
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