9mm carbine?

PaulR | 1/1/2022 | Me

[Paul R.]

What do FReepers think of 9mm carbines as a mid-power varmint rifle? My requirements are relatively cheap ammo, typical range is < 100 yards (usually 50 yards or less, really), only moderate penetration, with stopping power similar to a .357 handgun / somewhere between a .22lr hollow point and a 12 ga. deer slug. More...

[2111USMC]

I've got the 995TS. It's ridiculously accurate.

[Kevmo]

Apparently there are barrel extensions. Up to 8” as far as I can tell.
https://www.google.com/search?q=screw-in+gun+barrel+extension&ei=OA_SYYN-tKmq2w-RtYDADQ&start=30&sa=N&ved=2ahUKEwiD-uGF-JP1AhW0lGoFHZEaANg4FBDw0wN6BAgBEEo&biw=1366&bih=625&dpr=1

[Paul R.]

Food for thought! Thanks!

But, that said, I’d still like to go to as a primary moderate power rifle something with limited range and not loud (we are rural but not RURAL rural). And my wife would shoot it. The .223 is a bit much for her. The .22 lr is a bit too light for the job. I might look further at those .22 magnum or hornet options, but that HighPoint 9mm is inexpensive*, and ammo is cheap and available.

*$280 at Rural King, sometimes they have discounts / 10% off sales, and I seem to recall a concurrent rebate at times.

[StolarStorm]

What’s a good combo self defense and hunting rifle for SHTF scenario? I was thinking a M&P 15 Sport II .223 but not sure how that would work for hunting.

[gnarledmaw]

(Relevant internet advice postings, especially those on firearms and self defense, should generally be prefaced with a bit of epeen polishing... If you have to shoot something then you should always use a platform chambering a 50BMG or better. You should always carry a derringer that holds at least two rounds because you never know when youll get jumped by a bull moose followed by a grizzly but dont use it on ducks flying at less than 20,000 feet as that would be unsportsmanlike. You should avoid shooting at all if possible and use Dim Mak death touches to your opponents applied via Flying Drunken Dragon style.)

Regarding the Judge, I will attempt to sum up Paul Harrells thoughts over the course of his 5+ videos on the subject by putting the following words in his mouth:

"If you need to defend yourself from chocolate bunnies at point blank range then its a serviceable tool. If your assailant poses a threat equal to or greater than that of a pumpkin then there are better options."

I think your obvious concern about stray rounds is wise and understand why a 9mm might seem like a good idea. While the effective range is very short though the potential maximum range for the round to travel is much greater. Given the considerations you have expressed it still might not be a wise choice if your neighbors are 1/4 mile or less distant. Attempting to take all your concerns into consideration (sound, sizes and skill levels of operator, relative steadiness, range, etc) it seems that a small gauge shotgun loaded with shot is really the only choice.

[SuperLuminal]

I’ve got the 995...
At my age, 88, I’ve become a crappy shot with my handguns...
With any of my long guns it is a totally different story...

So, I view the light & smallish 995 as a long pistol, which, with a one-handed hold, I am pretty darned accurate with at normal pistol-shooting distances...

[Kevmo]

Here it is being discussed to add barrel extensions to pistols, with a picture in particular of a Rossi Judge Revolver pistol and a Rossi Circuit Judge Rifle

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possible-to-make-a-rifle-out-of-a-pistol-by-simply-extending-the-barrel-How-will-this-work

[SERE_DOC]

Says the person who never fired a 5.7x28mm.

[ctdonath2]

5.7 is a pistol round optimized against soft body armor on the premise that the carbine built for it is full auto.

[Paul R.]

Not a bad analysis! However, while I would like to lower risk (of a .223 round casing going astray and causing an unwanted injury or worse, 3000 yards out), a much reduced risk may be more rational than trying to get to near zero risk. As a close but not exactly parallel example, light loads from small shotguns are not allowed for hunting deer — for good reasons, even tho’ accidental shooting deaths by hunters (mostly of other hunters) would seem likely be reduced by such.

If I could cut the projectile flight distance of the .223 round by half, that reduces the danger area by a factor of 4. (The risk reduction in my specific area is greater because of where the roads are and are not - however, the squared function is better for a general analysis.)

Cont’d in next post...

[Paul R.]

Cont’d...

This brings me to a question to which the available information is to me a bit muddled. Taking our two most discussed options for example, it would seem that effective range (effective targeting) of the 9mm carbine is about 100 yards, the .223 is usually cited at 400 - 600 yards. (The .223 is the better choice of the two for sure in the SHTF scenario!) What I guess I’d call “risk range” (of an unintended injury to someone) is as you say much greater: The .223 is sometimes cited with a potential of 3800 yards or so: Over 2 miles. I’m still a bit confused on that number for the 9mm, but I think we are talking about a mile, perhaps?

HOWEVER! Those numbers state no elevation of the muzzle. No way under any scenario besides an attacker that has me “down” or true SHTF stuff am I ever firing either rifle on my property at an elevation above “0”. I suppose some sort of ricochet might elevate a round’s trajectory, at some loss of velocity, regardless, for now that goes in the “I’m already worrying too much” bin.

Distilled, my practical question is: Open, level terrain and sea level clear weather conditions assumed, how far will a typical 9mm round fired @ 0 deg. from a 9mm carbine 5’ high travel B4 it hits the ground? Then ditto that question for the .223?

[CurlyDave]

...how far will a typical 9mm round fired @ 0 deg. from a 9mm carbine 5’ high travel B4 it hits the ground? Then ditto that question for the .223?...

The way I read the ballistic tables, the 9mm will drop 60" in about 250 yards, the .223 will drop 60" in about 460 yards.

As a practical matter, both rifles would be sighted to zero at some reasonable range, probably 100 years for the 9mm and 250 yards for the .223. This wold start both bullets on a slightly upward trajectory at the muzzle. The 9mm will not gain significant range from this but the .223 might gain 150 yards or so.

I don't think it matters a lot, unless you are seeing varmints or stray dogs the size of horses you are going to be firing down with nearly any shot you take. Essentially, double the distance to the target from your position and you have a reasonable carry range for the bullet.

For dispatching varmints and marauding dogs on your property think hard about a 20 gauge shotgun.

[fatboy]

At ease, cowboy.

[Paul R.]

Noted and that makes sense about the carry range. ...Unless I skip a bullet off a skull or shoulder, maybe (but then the magnitude of the velocity should be considerably lessened.)

Realistically, then, if I choose my position well, the odds a shot would leave the property are low, so, the noise and “comfort of use” by my wife and daughter might be bigger factors.

A 20 ga. would not be as loud as my 12 ga., anyway!

[Paul R.]

Thanks to most of you for many good posts, ideas, and info.!

[Mr Rogers]

Everywhere I know, a dog who kills someone else’s animals is toast.

[lapsus calami]

 

 

One thing you have to factor in is barrel length and rate of twist - 1:7 to 1:12. That's going to mess with your performance and accuracy with any given ammunition. One ammo does not fit all when it comes to that variable. You have to find out what works with your given configuration and use that.

 

 

[Big Red Badger]

My thoughts also,
Sometimes You only Want the
Best!

[Big Red Badger]

Try .38 +P Hollow points,
Not the recoil of .357 and
Follow up shots are Better.

[SERE_DOC]

The FN P90® selective fire carbine was developed for NATO in the late 1980s as the Personal Defense Weapon (PDW) component of the integrated 5.7x28mm Weapons System.

The optimum word is carbine