The CDC is now listing vaccinated COVID-19 deaths as UNvaccinated deaths if they die within 14 days of the vaccine.

Twitter ^ | 9/2921 | Dr Simone Gold

[Enlightened1]

Time to arrest these criminals.

This is 100% criminal.

[eastexsteve]

There are no black helicopters here. Just like the flu vaccine, it takes 10 days to 2 weeks to fully protect you.

[WildHighlander57]

But now the CDC is coming out and changing how they count deaths due to shots & the virus.

If they left the mistakes in there since January, then what does that say about their credibility?

[eastexsteve]

Do jabbers tell people that their vaccine cards are invalid until14 days after taking the last injection?

Yes, they do. That's what they told me after the J&J.

[blackdog]

Center for Duplicitous Collusion.

[SomeCallMeTim]

Ping

[Jan_Sobieski]

It makes zero sense to say you are vaccinated the moment the needle goes into your shoulder muscle.

Your liberal logic is brilliant! The last 100 years of vaccinations we’ve been counting wrong! It’s NOT after vaccinated. It’s at that arbitrary point where the CDC SAYS we are vaccinated. Brilliant!!

[one guy in new jersey]

“You don’t magically get full immunity the moment you get the shot. Immunity ramps up slowly much for the first two weeks, then it approaches 40% to 60% of it’s final value (after two shots) by the fourth week when you get the second shot. You need to pick a point in time where you change from unvaccinated to vaccinated. It makes zero sense to say you are vaccinated the moment the needle goes into your shoulder muscle.”

__________

Sanguine, condescending.

[Jan_Sobieski]

This is not new. It takes 14 days to generate the immune response to the vaccine. People under14 days form the second injection have always been considered unvaccinated

Now you lie. If this was the case I would not have been given shots entering the plane to fly overseas!? For the last 100 years of vaccinations, we were considered Vaxxed once we received the shots. Now it is some arbitrary point weeks later?

[El Cid]

I don't think it is inherently wrong to classify someone as not being 'fully vaccinated' if they haven't been fully 'cooked' (if being fully 'cooked' is defined as starting two weeks after they've received the last shot - then so be it), but there definitely should be a third category: Partially vaccinated.
Stating that these people with CoVid are unvaccinated, when they've received the shots (or shot), is misleading (and lying).
Create the third category for the reports.

There has been a lot of misleading statements regarding the infected being 'unvaccinated'. A month ago they had the '98% of those who died of CoVid were unvaccinated'. Sounds bad, but later you find out that the 98% number started the clock in January (when no one was vaccinated, and CoVid was at its height). The reports made it sound like this was recent data, and not data going back to January. Intentionally misleading.
And now recently they've come up with the numbers including partially vaccinated as unvaccinated.

The net result: I don't believe any of the quotes coming out of the CDC.

[Widget Jr]

CDC Morbidity and Mortality Report
SARS-CoV-2 Infections and Hospitalizations Among Persons Aged ≥16 Years, by Vaccination Status — Los Angeles County, California, May 1–July 25, 2021
Weekly / August 27, 2021 / 70(34);1170–1176

I know I am going to get flamed for this, which is fine. I am challenging her claims because the anti-Covid Vaccine and anti-CDC-vaccines-or-nothing side of this has their own fake news and snake oil salesmen too. Not everyone who criticizes the CDC is automatically good at it. We need good information, sources and arguments. When critics of the CDC make statements that opponents can easily discredit, it is like we are scoring baskets on ourselves, not the other side. My concern is that is what is happening here, and I know not everyone on FR appreciates this.

Claim: "The CDC is now listing vaccinated COVID-19 deaths as UNvaccinated deaths if they die within 14 days of the vaccine."

Does the study support the claim in the graphic:

Or is the truth buried in it so that reading between the lines is needed?
Does the tweet represent or misrepresent the study cited?
What does the paper actually say?

Dr Gold's highlights:

" however, even with highly effective vaccines, a proportion of fully vaccinated persons will become infected with SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19"

The vaccines are not 100% effective, the manufacturers and CDC never said they were. 95% effectiveness in tests means a 5% failure rate.

"Persons were considered fully vaccinated ≥14 days after receipt of the second dose in a 2-dose series (Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna COVID-19 vaccines) or after 1 dose of the single-dose Janssen (Johnson & Johnson) COVID-19 vaccine¶; partially vaccinated ≥14 days after receipt of the first dose and <14 days after the second dose in a 2-dose series; and unvaccinated <14 days after receipt of the first dose of a 2-dose series or 1 dose of the single-dose vaccine or if no CAIR2 vaccination data were available."

This part defines who is unvaccinated, partially or fully vaccinated, using a two dose regimen. Nothing about deaths.

Lets look at what was not highlighted after this.

COVID-19–associated hospitalizations were defined as hospital admissions occurring ≤14 days after a first SARS-CoV-2 infection. COVID-19–associated deaths were defined as deaths occurring ≤60 days after the date of a first laboratory-confirmed SARS-CoV-2 infection or deaths with COVID-19 listed as a cause of or contributing condition to death."

This defines hospitalization. It uses the 14 day period in relation to infection, not vaccination. There is nothing to show here the people who get vaccinated and die are automatically listed as unvaccinated deaths. Again, these are definitions of terms.

What Dr. Gold did was confuse the definitions with the conclusions and read into what was not there (yet). A doctor should know better than that, and her critics will spot that error fast.

"A lower percentage of deaths (0.2%, 24) occurred among fully vaccinated persons than among partially vaccinated (0.5%, seven) and unvaccinated (0.6%, 176) persons (p<0.001). Death investigations determined that six of the 24 fully vaccinated persons who died had immunocompromising conditions, including HIV infection, cancer (i.e., prostate, pancreatic, lung, or leukemia), and liver transplantation, and that the median age was higher among vaccinated (median = 78 years, IQR = 63.5–87.5 years) and partially vaccinated (median = 74, IQR = 58.0–80.0) persons than among unvaccinated persons (median = 63, IQR = 51.5–79.5) (p = 0.01)"

Some of the vaccinated still died, this was at lower than the partial and unvaccinated. Of the vaccinated who died, 1/4 had risks and their median age was in the high risk age group. The elderly and high risk commorbidities are at high risk, no matter and no surprises there.

Please read before blasting away:

Not many died, with or without vaccines, and we need to know the data break down to know risks between low and high risk groups. If we don't need the jab, we don't need the jab no matter what the CDC wants. If people who die only from Covid do so at rate similar to the flu, then mandatory vaccinations do not make much sense, except for purposes of social control.

IRRC, the Pfizers study did the same thing, using a controlled presentation of information for the risks by not providing a detailed breakdown. What is not being presented or explained is a area that needs to be questioned.

"The findings in this report are subject to at least six limitations. First, vaccination data for persons who lived in Los Angeles County at the time of their laboratory-confirmed infection but who were vaccinated outside of California were unavailable, leading to misclassification of their vaccination status; if vaccinated persons without accessible records were considered to be unvaccinated, the incidence in unvaccinated persons could be underestimated. Second, case ascertainment is based on passive surveillance, with known underreporting that might differ by vaccination status. Similarly, screening and testing behaviors might differ among groups. Third, COVID-19–associated hospitalizations were determined based on hospital admission and SARS-CoV-2 test dates alone, leading to the inclusion of incidental hospitalizations that were not associated with COVID-19. Fourth, COVID-19–associated deaths included deaths occurring ≤60 days after a first SARS-CoV-2 positive test date; therefore, some COVID-19–associated deaths might have been from other causes (excluding trauma). In addition, certain COVID-19–associated deaths might have been a result of long-term sequelae after ≤60 days and were not included."

Nothing about vaccines causes deaths so far, this is about definitions for data used collection. The vaccines are not perfect, and some will die after getting them. 95% success rates in trials means 5% failure. The longer the time period between vaccination and infection, the more other causes and issues are involved.

What is not included:

A breakdown of a timeline showing relationships between vaccination and hospitalization. There is nothing presented to show when the vaccinated who got Covid got it in relation to their vaccination. Right now, for most public health, fighting Covid comes first, analyzing problems with methods is a distant second for most of them.

Does the study back Dr. Gold's claims: No.
Does she misrepresent it: Yes.
Does the study show vaccines are working: Yes.
Does the study prove vaccines are necessary for everyone: No.
Does the study show vaccines are causing problems: Can not be determined.
Are there issues with vaccines from other sources: Yes.

Comments?

[LilFarmer]

Here is an example of what the CDC counts as vaccinated and unvaccinated.

Effectiveness of COVID-19 Vaccines in Preventing Hospitalization Among Adults Aged ≥65 Years — COVID-NET, 13 States, February–April 2021

Link takes you to a table

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7032e3.htm?s_cid=mm7032e3_w#T1_down

The footnotes of the table define the terms:

“ Partially vaccinated patients received 1 dose of Moderna or Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine ≥14 days before hospitalization or 2 doses, with the second dose received <14 days before hospitalization.

Fully vaccinated patients received both doses of Moderna or Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, with second dose received ≥14 days before hospitalization, or receipt of a single dose of Janssen (Johnson & Johnson) vaccine ≥14 days before hospitalization.”

[BradyLS]

Thanks for setting me straight!

[Widget Jr]

Thanks for the link. I think the definitions of unvaccinated and vaccinated are the same both studies. Definitions are not outcomes, which is a mistake I think Dr. Gold made.

Studies are looking for vaccine effectiveness, not vaccine issues. If there are issues, that would require getting the spreadsheets and looking at when people got sick after taking vaccines, and seeing if there is a pattern with factors like age, comorbidities, time after vaccination of infection.

From figure 2 in the link you posted, partial vaccination has issues. If people are getting sick after the first does or shortly after the second dose in a narrow date range, then would be a cause for concern. AFAIK no one has presented the data on when people are getting sick during and after vaccination. Any doctor raising these issues risks censorship like Dr. Charles Hoffe.

[LilFarmer]

I am not following what you are saying in your critique of her post. My understanding is this.

You will have a chart of hospitalizations or deaths from the CDC. The pair breakdown is vaccinated and unvaccinated. However because of how they define who counts as unvaccinated (it includes people vaccinated within 2 weeks) some of the hospitalized or deaths in the “unvaccinated” column are actually vaccinated

[BitWielder1]

If you torture the numbers long enough they will say anything.

[zeestephen]

ping

[daniel1212]

"I am challenging her claims because the anti-Covid Vaccine and anti-CDC-vaccines-or-nothing side of this has their own fake news and snake oil salesmen too. Not everyone who criticizes the CDC is automatically good at it. We need good information, sources and arguments. When critics of the CDC make statements that opponents can easily discredit, it is like we are scoring baskets on ourselves, not the other side."

Correct, and glad you posted the above and what you found. There is often as much misleading "fake" new on conservative sites then the MSM. One aspect that is known to be true is that until about August 2021, the CDC guidelines only recommended testing vaccinated persons for Covid if they had symptoms. (https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/07/28/world/covid-delta-variant-vaccine) This inflated the % of infected people who were not vaccinated.

[Widget Jr]

There is so much good and bad information on both sides, it is hard to be informed on what is factual.

< angry_rant >

The discussion is also largely side show. Decisions have already been made by people who have dubious authority to make them and no one is challenging them. Since when does the CDC have authority over evictions? Where are the employee and civil rights attorneys on mandates? What happened to informed consent? Since when are we told to shut up and engage in a mass medical experiment with no legal rights?

What the 2020 election showed, is for several years a weird type of virtual police state was being created behind the scenes. Then during the election, it was let lose. Now we are living in it.

< /angry_rant >

[Widget Jr]

It is approaching 10PM local, so my ability to post is about as risky as drinking and driving, so please bear with me here.

Basically, she is going from a "could have" to "it definitely happened and proves something" when the study doesn't show it.

It is not just "vaccinated" and "unvaccinated", there are "partially vaccinated" in the study as well, since it takes time for the vaccines/therapies to take effect. My read of this is she is mixing up "partially vaccinated" with "unvaccinated" and claiming "vaccinated" are counted as "unvaccinated" when the people she are taking about are actually "partially vaccinated" in their own category.