"What did those idiots do now?"
Posted on 05/13/2021 10:33:23 AM PDT by Red Badger
Edited on 05/13/2021 10:49:22 AM PDT by Sidebar Moderator. [history]
"What did those idiots do now?"
The 17 runways have this terrible wind pattern at approach altitude. The grounds can be calm but aloft winds can be blowing 20+. Cross wind landings are fun there. If you can land KAPA then you can do them anywhere.
If you look at the radar track, it looks like the Cirrus and the GA aircraft before him overshot 17R on the base leg and had to correct on final. Unfortunately, the Cirrus’ turn to final put him right on top of the Metro. Don’t know if wind was a factor at pattern altitude, but if the centerlines are only 700’ apart as you said earlier, I would bet it was more a case of sloppy pattern work more than winds aloft.
However, I still can’t understand why the controller didn’t extend the Cirrus’ downwind leg to allow the Metro to land before the Cirrus.
I believe the Cirrus over the fence speed is around 80kts and I am assuming the Metro is significantly higher because of the turboprops. It just doesn’t make sense to sequence a GA and commercial aircraft on a visual approach into the “same” airspace simultaneously. Granted, in the real world this has probably been done without incident before, but on a non-instrument approach it just sounds like asking for trouble.
“It just doesn’t make sense to sequence a GA and commercial aircraft on a visual approach into the “same” airspace simultaneously.”
Happens all day every day. KAPA is one of the busiest airports in the country.
My BRAVE browser apparently gets rid of ALL of the commercials.
Agreed, and it’s always easier to look at things in hindsight but consider the following.
First, obviously you have more experience at that airport than I and I assume you are a pilot who has flown into KAPA before.
You indicated the distance between centerlines of 17L and 17R is only 700 feet. Not a lot of room for error.
You also stated it was not uncommon for GA aircraft to have to use high bank angles (30 degrees) in order to turn from base to final in order not to infringe on the approach to 17L.
You asked about winds aloft. You said the winds at pattern altitude may differ from winds reported by the tower. Obviously, it sounds as if aircraft have been pushed into the approach of either runway depending from which direction the wind was blowing.
There was ambiguity in the controllers call out to the Cirrus about traffic on approach to 17L. It certainly didn’t sound as if the Cirrus driver was aware of the approaching Metro.
The Metro doesn’t offer a huge profile to pick up visually and there was no acknowledgement by the Cirrus the pilot ever saw the Metro.
Both aircraft were operating on a visual approach which isn’t flown as tightly as other instrument approaches.
The radar track of the Cirrus and the aircraft preceeding the Cirrus show both aircraft either did or were about to turn from base to final well left of the track to 17R.
While I hate to paint all GA pilots with a broad brush, most do not fly as tight a pattern as a professional pilot.
Extending the Cirrus’ downwind leg by 30-seconds (or less) would have prevented the Cirrus from flying into the Metro even had the Cirrus gone wide on base to final.
I would bet there have been incidents of near-misses before. This time, the two paths converged.
Bottom line, the aircraft can be replaced (although if you read some of the comments on other sites regarding the operator of Key Lime Air the words duct tape and baling wire are mentioned frequently) no one was hurt, and it may lead to procedures that will separate traffic between the two runways better.
Independence Aviation is also run by people I know. All pros, ATP, and even at least one DPE. Every one of those guys has countless cycles through that airport.
“Here’s a phrase that apparently the airlines simply made up: near miss. They say that if 2 planes almost collide, it’s a near miss. Bullsh, my friend. It’s a near hit! A collision is a near miss.
[WHAM! CRUNCH!]
“Look, they nearly missed!”
“Yes, but not quite.”
Left out the attribute to George Carlin.
“I would bet there have been incidents of near-misses before. “
Lots! Nothing like getting a call from tower, “XYZ, bank hard left now!” Happened to me more than once.
The airport is a training airport with probably half the flights for training. ATC are trained there, too. Makes for a nervous cadre of experienced pilots and experienced controllers. Aviation needs an upgrade to its safety standards. There simply are some people that should never fly or be a controller.
There have been calls to close this much needed and economically important airport as it was once in the middle of nowhere but has been encroached on all sides now. This is how so many airports have been closed, through development.
Wrong!\Near miss (safety)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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“Close call” redirects here. For the film, see Close Call.
A near miss, “near hit”, “close call”, or “nearly a collision” is an unplanned event that has the potential to cause, but does not actually result in human injury, environmental or equipment damage, or an interruption to normal operation.[citation needed]
OSHA defines a near miss as an incident in which no property was damaged and no personal injury was sustained, but where, given a slight shift in time or position, damage or injury easily could have occurred. Near misses also may be referred to as close calls, near accidents, accident precursors, injury-free events and, in the case of moving objects, near collisions.[citation needed]
A near miss is often an error, with harm prevented by other considerations and circumstances.[1]
The phrase “near miss” should not be confused with the phrase “nearly a miss” which would imply a collision.
I hate to see any airport closed, especially one that has been there longer than the surrounding developments. But the easy way for the FAA is to simply shut it down.
It’s been over 30 years since I’ve actively flown and now find my passion is to find old abandoned airports or at least acreage where airports once were. It’s sad to see how urban sprawl has consumed a good portion of this nations aviation history.
Let’s hope something good comes out of this incident. It looks like a tragedy was averted the other day. Hopefully, it will be a “teachable moment” for all involved.
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