Former Walters director Gary Vikan chronicles ‘the greatest deception in the history of Christianity’ (the Shroud of Turin) [Commentary]

And this was. told to by someone that was there?

More snark, I see. It does not become you.

Try doing fifty years of deep study and research into a subject such as the Shroud, including JEWISH BURIAL CUSTOMS AND PRACTICES, which we know were used in burying Jesus, and using logic about how that face cloth got separated from the other burial cloths when Jesus left the Tomb.

Then, Tex, work on the sequential steps of the burial practices and the resurrection. It’s a logical concatenation of events.

USE YOUR HEAD instead of coming up with nitpicking snark, Tex. . . Or do you think that cloth got there by floating there????

Logic works.

Sometimes, things are a simple as that. That cloth lying by itself told Jesus’ followers who saw it that Jesus had walked out of the tomb.

Have you read the Gospels in one of the Greek versions?

Learn Greek and your eyes might be opened about how different the English versions are! Or just start looking at the Greek words. . . and learning what they mean. What is it? A cloth? A towel? A handkerchief? A napkin? A sweat cloth? Who chose those English words and why? Who were they targeting with those choices? Why? Why does one English translation use "bandages" and "strips" when no Jewish burial found has ever used such grave clothes? Where in Greek Literature were words similar to the words in the Gospels used that could be interpreted to mean bandages and strips by the English translator who chose them? There’s a reason that translator used them... it had to do with what he HAD been translating in Latin and Greek before! But if you don’t know THAT, you won’t know why a lot of Christians erroneously think Jewish people swathed their dead in yards and yards of bandages and strips, when they did no such thing. . . All because of word choices by a translator.

You do not find this stuff in a single source. It comes from RESEARCH. LEARNING and LISTENING.

Not on this thread.

Reply to AFB-XYZ

“ Wasn’t there human hemoglobin found in the Shroud? And various pollens from first-century Judea? And what about the photographic-negative quality of the image, not to mention the anatomical accuracy of the nail holes through the wrists, vs. the palms? Yes to Human hemoglobin and pollens from the Jerusalem area, not to mention anatomical accuracy of the nails through the wrists/palms. However it is not a a photographic 3D image. It’s a 3D terrain map which is not photographic, having nothing to do with photography, but rather to do with the an analog inverse representation of the distance of the body to the skin represented by the darkness of the image which dissipates at about 10cm from the cloth visually, and at about 20cm even under computer enhancement. This computer enhancement allows us to know that the Man on the Shroud was circumcised (per Barrie Schwortz, principal Light Photographer STURP).— Reply #39 on this thread.

Gonna call me a liar again, Tex???

Barrie Schwortz, was the principal optical light photographer of the 1978 Shroud of Turin Research Project, and the founder and president of The Shroud of Turin Education and Research Association, Inc. which is the operator of Shroud.com, the primary clearing house of all scientific, scholarly, and popular documents on the Shroud of Turin in the world. Barrie is the author of numerous books on the Shroud, and also is a producer and director. He is an expert on photography and computer enhancement of photographs.

I’ve known Barrie going on 41 years.

Barrie has appeared in almost every documentary on the Shroud of Turin ever made. He is a practicing Jew, but believes the Shroud is the genuine burial cloth of Jesus. He KNOWS what he is talking about and is world class expert on the Shroud.

If you had been on Shroud threads on FR, you’d have seen this numerous time. I’ve maintained the Shroud of Turin Ping list on FR for almost 18 years.

You don’t seem to know very much about it, but you feel free to criticize me and make snarky comments. I’ve forgotten more on this subject (I freely admit that) than you will ever bother to learn. Ask anyone on here.

I’ve made presentations on this topic at symposia as an invited authority, and taught classes. I’ve written on the subject and don’t need to source things when I have often been quoted as AN AUTHORITATIVE SOURCE having done the original research. GIVE YOUR SNARK A REST!

We have other such authorities on FR. Freepers such as Shroudie, who has been cited on many documentaries. He also is quite knowledgeable on the Shroud. And YES we do have access to inside, unpublished information we sometimes share with the limitations on how reliable it is. YOU can take it or leave it as you wish. I don’t give a damn.

We share our knowledge because it should be shared. But asshat attitudes such as YOURS makes me wonder why I bother.

I can buy that. But why was the shroud NOT wrapped as was common.

Again, those dang Greek words. That pesky Greek word means “enfolded” not “wraped”. It was NOT common to “wrap” a Jewish body per the Mishnah. There have been just three first century Jewish burials found where the bones were not collected that involved a shroud. These were incomplete due to an earthquake burning the Tombs. Two still had the shroud remnants complete enough to show they were merely drawn up over the body. The other had mere pieces of the shroud left and nothing of how it was used could be learned. One year after burial, the family would return to the tomb to complete the burial by collecting the bones after the body had essentially rotted away, and “collect” the bones to their ancestors, placing them either into a central tomb ossuary pit with the rest of the family’s bones, or into a collective bone ossuary box (a first century innovation) with multiple family member bones per box. Anything that would entangle that task would not be done at burial, as touching things that touched dead bodies made one even more ritually unclean, complicating the rituals to cleanse oneself afterwards. When a shroud was used it was folded over the body. . . which is what Greek original says, the Hebrew Mishnah requires, and the two extant graves unearthed in archaeological digs found.

Wrapping is a conflation of people becoming aware of Egyptian mummies and how the Egyptians buried THEIR dead. The Jewish people required their dead had to be buried before sundown on the day they died. Think about it. With that kind of pressure, do you really think there would be TIME to do complicated wrappings before the sun dropped below the horizon, which was the definition of sundown? No, there was not. The Mishnah specified cleaning, anoint, then binding the limbs, the jaws, closing the eyes (they usually used a stone or a potsherd to keep the eyes closed but rich people used coins), attach the ritual prayer devices, cover the body using a shroud of one could be afforded, or a face covering if not, a privacy cloth over the loins in addition if no shroud. If blood was spilled, include all that could be collected and things the blood touched. If it could be afforded, spices and aromatic herbs around the body. Done. Close the tomb and go clean yourself ritually from handling a dead body. Praying would be done at home with family, sitting shiva.

In Jesus’ case, with the Sabath eminent, the time was particularly short. They first had to get permission after His death to take down the body from Pilate. Then the procedure of the Roman soldiers to do so. He died at the ninth hour... about 3PM. It will be 3:30 before people are certain Jesus is actually dead.

Sundown was around 7:20-7:25PM about that time in the spring. Getting permission required someone with authority to go to Pilate, most likely Joseph of Arimathea who was not young, getting an audience with Pilate, arguing why the body should NOT be left on the cross, etc. Distance Golgotha to Pilate’s Hasmonean Palace is up a series of switchbacks and then past the Temple and the then west from there. It’s about a mile.

Joseph has to take his time, but time is precious. Time to persuade the factotum of a legitimate reason to bother the governor, then argue the case. Then back through the market to buy “a hundred taels of spices and ointments, plus a fine linen Syndon (the Shroud)” and then back to Golgotha with Pilate’s order to take down Jesus from the Cross. Arguably that’s on hour to an hour and a half to two hours. Let’s say the shorter time. Joseph rushed, and Pilate was feeling guilty.

The soldier’s worked quickly and got Jesus down rapidly. They are professional, even though they don’t normally remove dead crucifixion victims from their torture devices. They’re left there for some time for animals to get down, or until the stapes are needed for their next victim.

Let’s say it takes these Roman professionals a half hour to undo their handiwork and get the body down and the nails out. Joseph and his friends are now two and a half hours after the ninth hour, or 5:30PM and the body is not yet at the Tomb. Good thing the Garden Tomb is only a fifteen minute walk away, if only they weren’t carrying a dead weight, plus about 80 pounds of herbs, ointments, the shroud and other binding cloths. Likely, it’s going to take about a half-hour. It’s now 6pm. . . Sundown is an hour and 20 minutes away. The body has to be prepared, in the Tomb, buried, with enough time for these men to get home and ritually cleansed for their OWN Sabath start BEFORE the sun set. No work at all is permitted including ritual cleansing of one’s body after sunset! No, not allowed.

Remember, getting back into Jerusalem is back up a series of switchbacks and almost a mile to the middle of the city!

Joseph and his friends to a very quick job. The best they can do with the time constraints. No cleaning. No anointing. Binding, laying out. Pack the herbs and ointment around for later (that would be on Sunday), and pull the shroud up and over, and get the out as fast as they can. . . ZOOM!

Remember, the women were going back on Sunday morning to FINISH what COULD NOT BE FINISHED (LAZY MEN, sleeping in on Sunday?) on Friday evening... then... and the rest is history.

Again this is using research, knowledge and logic.

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