Posted on 09/14/2020 2:17:02 AM PDT by CharlesOConnell
CS Lewis wrote in the Abolition of Man:
The Chinese also speak of a great thing (the greatest thing) called the Tao. It is the reality beyond all predicates, the abyss that was before the Creator Himself. It is Nature, it is the Way, the Road. It is the Way in which the universe goes on, the Way in which things everlastingly emerge, stilly and tranquilly, into space and time. It is also the Way which every man should tread in imitation of that cosmic and supercosmic progression, conforming all activities to that great exemplar.'^ 'In ritual', say the Analects, 'it is harmony with Nature that is prized.'"^ The ancient Jews likewise praise the Law as being 'true'.''
The 4th line of a Catholic hymn states about God,
Praise to the Father, with the Son,
And Holy Ghost, through Whom
The Word eternal was conceived
Within the Virgin’s Womb.
Be_ salvation, honor, blessing,
Now and through eternity.
Immortal, infinite sublime!
Older than chaos, space or time!
Here's the music for the lyric.
Which is it, Is God before or after Chaos, The Abyss?
deep
JRR Tolkien, Music of the Ainur
After Ilúvatar told them about the Music, the Ainur began to fashion it. Their voices, like the sound of harps and trumpets and choirs, passed “beyond hearing” into the depths and heights of sound. The great Music filled the Timeless Halls and passed beyond them even into the Void, so that it “was not void”. The Ainur’s flawless Music satisfied even Ilúvatar during this early stage.
But soon, faults entered into the great Theme as a result of the discords of Melkor, an Ainu whose thoughts had become strange and unlike those of his brethren due to his wanderings in the Void. Ilúvatar had given the Ainur permission to weave their own ideas into the Music, but Melkor’s thoughts actually clashed against Eru’s Themes, because Melkor wanted to “increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself”. Melkor’s desire to bring into being creatures of his own with the Flame Imperishable and fill the emptiness of the Void put him at odds with Ilúvatar’s vision. These discords of Melkor that became evident in his music dismayed those around him, and many faltered in their singing or else attuned their song to his.
The original harmony of the Music was thus consumed by a “sea of turbulent sound” until it became like a “raging storm”. At that point, Eru responded by rising from his seat and raising his left hand. It seemed to the Ainur that he then smiled. After his reaction to the Music, a new Theme began amid the chaos.
The Second Theme was “like and yet unlike” the First; it gathered new power and beauty. Soon, however, Melkor’s discord rose up against it, and there was a “war of sound more violent than before”. This time, Melkor’s Theme triumphed over that of the others; many of the Ainur stopped singing entirely out of dismay. Ilúvatar then rose from his seat again, his expression stern this time. He raised his right hand, and yet another Theme unfolded.
The next Theme had a sound unlike the others before it. It began quietly amid the confusion of the Second Theme, and sounded like the rippling of soft and sweet notes. It gained power and depth over time, until two completely different songs were being made. One was filled with “immeasurable sorrow”, which gave it tremendous beauty, while the other was a loud, pompous theme playing in violent opposition to it. Nevertheless, this repetitive theme could not overcome the sorrowful one, and the latter merely took the former’s greatest notes and “[wove them] into its own solemn pattern”. The strife between the two themes caused the dwelling of Ilúvatar and even the Void beyond it to shake. At this point, Eru stood once more and raised both his arms, “and in one chord, deeper than the Abyss, higher than the firmament... the Music ceased”.
Ilúvatar then spoke to the Ainur about the Music and the consequences that would arise from any attempts to bring discord into it, as Melkor had done. To show them the result of their actions, he led them into the Void and spoke, “Behold your Music!”. The Ainur saw a Vision of what their song had created— “a World that was globed amid the Void... but was not of it”. They saw the history of this World as it unfolded, and witnessed the part each had played in its making. Even the discords of Melkor contributed to the glory of this creation.
The Ainur were amazed when the Children of Ilúvatar came into this vision, for they were a part of Eru’s plan that had not been revealed to them before the Music was played. The Children were sung into being by Ilúvatar during the Third Theme, and none of the Ainur had dared contribute to their making.
Ilúvatar suddenly took away the vision, and the Ainur did not get to see how it would end. Some say that they only saw the history of the Universe until the Dominion of Men. The abrupt ending of the vision caused restlessness among the Ainur, and Ilúvatar perceived that they wanted the vision to be given true being, so that—even despite the terrible flaws that had been introduced into it—the Universe would be as real as they themselves were.
Therefore Eru said, “Eä! Let these things Be!”. He sent the Flame Imperishable into the Universe, and far off in the Void a light appeared—the beginning of the achievement of the Music of the Ainur.
John 1:3 and/ or Col 1: 17-20 might help enquiries
All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. - John 1:3
And he is before all, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he may hold the primacy: Because in him, it hath well pleased the Father, that all fullness should dwell; And through him to reconcile all things unto himself, making peace through the blood of his cross, both as to the things that are on earth, and the things that are in heaven. - Col 1: 17-20
Too deep for my shallow mind this morning.
God always was. He will always be.
Nothing came "before" God. The whole concept is meaningless.
God has no beginning or end. He is eternal, known to us by three persons.
Some have associated the CHAOS with the fall of Lucifer from heaven. The attempt to restore order independent of God is the COSMIC or worldly system. God’s Plan for humanity simply requires faith thru Christ and what He provided at the Cross.
The Abyss is associated with a location, deeper and darker than other depths, associated with Tartarus, where many of the more criminally depraved demons and fallen angels have been bound until the final Judgment.
Was, Is, Will Always Be.
‘God always was. He will always be.’
where...?
Mot feep enough, never can be, This is sort of like my dog thinking he can teach me quantum mechanics, or how to buld a Wilson cloud chamber. God has let us jnow that we can never initiate such a state of awareness.
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.This article comes from the fantasies of a fool, not that of a deep mind in tune with the Creator, but only as far as its built-in limitations will take it.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts" (Is. 55:8-9 AV).
This kind of writing is to God what my dog's bark is to me, or the bite of a flea is to my dog--nothing more, if you get the idea. Charles ODonnel's musings are of the same sort as those of Lucifer:
"I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High" (Is. 14:14 AV)Go get your breakfast. Enjoying that will have more real significance than giving another second to this stuff.
He’s omnipresent—He’s everywhere
It is? I think it existed before The Beginning, where dimensions, mass, and light came into being (which are needed to create a "location" or a physical "thing" with form and tangibility). That is why there is an entity called "abyss," that has no bottom. What it is not is the physical created universe, nor is it God's Heaven.
That is a category mistake. It is like asking what is the circumference of a square?, or how many married bachelors exist?
God is not located any "Where" He is transcendent.
As for the Chaos question, Why is there something instead of nothing? If ever nothing existed, then nothing would exist now. All things that begin to exist must have a cause. If nothing existed at any point then there would be nothing now because there would be nothing to cause anything. Therefore it follows that if anything currently exists then something must have always existed. That is to say that something must have existence as an attribute.
Something must be uncreated. When Moses asks God; Whom shall I say sent me? What is your name? His answer is "I am that I am". In other words the one who exists. The Bible refers to Him as the one who "Is and was, and is to come". He is eternal.
Einstein discovered that the universe began to exist and it caused him to make a big mistake with his cosmological constant because he was trying to avoid a created universe, (maintain the old Steady State theory). Only after Hubble discovered that the universe was expanding (red shift) did Einstein realize his mistake and realize that the universe, that is all matter that exists, began to exist a finite time in the past.
If the universe began to exist it must have a creator, that creator must have existence as an attribute. If you can come up with a better explanation (something having explanatory power) that is an explanation that accounts for conditions as we observe them, not poeple blurting out Zuess, or flying spaghetti monster, or whatever pops into their gin soaked imagination, then by all means....
The Chinese are wrong about Tao or at least claim they misunderstand its origin. God created it, or “It is God Himself.
Is the Abyss larger than the largest star in the universe? Certainly its deeper than the depths of this planet.
Thank you. Coffee taste good this morning.
God has let us know that we can never initiate such a state of awareness.
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts" (Is. 55:8-9 AV).
This article comes from the fantasies of a fool, not that of a deep mind in tune with the Creator, but only as far as its built-in limitations will take it.
This kind of writing is to God what my dog's bark is to me, or the bite of a flea is to my dog--nothing more, if you get the idea. Charles ODonnel's musings are of the same sort as those of Lucifer:
"I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High" (Is. 14:14 AV)
Go get your breakfast. Enjoying that will have more real significance than giving another second to this stuff.
You should stop pontificating on things you don't understand. You are about as ignorant as your dog, that is the only thing you got right.
You claim that thinking about God's existence is the same as your dog trying to teach you technical things. You deny that we are created in His image. As God is a rational reasoning being so are we. He created the Heavens to show His eternal Glory. Psalms 19: 1. To whom do you think they show it?
You equate this type of thinking with the pride of Lucifer which was to steal God's glory and exalt his throne above that of the creator. Please, explain that to Augustine, or to Aquinas.
You'd have made a great Pharisee or maybe Torquemada's best assistant.
Interesting exchange. “Before God” has no meaning. God created time itself. Even our thoughts to think outside of time use time as a reference. We tend to think of the infinite as a long stretch of time that does not end, for example.
There are a lot of great Biblical scholars and all of them, as great as they are, sometimes get it wrong. That’s just who we are, as humans in a fallen world.
“But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;”
I Corinthians 1:27
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