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To: BroJoeK; x; Bull Snipe; rockrr; DiogenesLamp; central_va; Pelham
“No Founder, while living, ever proposed or supported unilateral declaration of secession at pleasure.That's a fact, FRiend.”

That is an interesting comment. What does it mean when you specify “while living?”

Does the “while living” reference distinguish what they supported in this case from other times you know of when they supported things when they were not living?

My guess is the reference to “while living” was superfluous chatter incorporated, perhaps unwittingly, to add credibility and gravitas to a claim that otherwise has neither.

337 posted on 08/12/2019 6:44:42 AM PDT by jeffersondem
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To: jeffersondem
Here a founding father you might listen to about the importance of national unity and putting being an American before anything else.

The unity of government which constitutes you one people is also now dear to you. It is justly so, for it is a main pillar in the edifice of your real independence, the support of your tranquility at home, your peace abroad; of your safety; of your prosperity; of that very liberty which you so highly prize. But as it is easy to foresee that, from different causes and from different quarters, much pains will be taken, many artifices employed to weaken in your minds the conviction of this truth; as this is the point in your political fortress against which the batteries of internal and external enemies will be most constantly and actively (though often covertly and insidiously) directed, it is of infinite moment that you should properly estimate the immense value of your national union to your collective and individual happiness; that you should cherish a cordial, habitual, and immovable attachment to it; accustoming yourselves to think and speak of it as of the palladium of your political safety and prosperity; watching for its preservation with jealous anxiety; discountenancing whatever may suggest even a suspicion that it can in any event be abandoned; and indignantly frowning upon the first dawning of every attempt to alienate any portion of our country from the rest, or to enfeeble the sacred ties which now link together the various parts.

For this you have every inducement of sympathy and interest. Citizens, by birth or choice, of a common country, that country has a right to concentrate your affections. The name of American, which belongs to you in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of patriotism more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion, manners, habits, and political principles. You have in a common cause fought and triumphed together; the independence and liberty you possess are the work of joint counsels, and joint efforts of common dangers, sufferings, and successes.

Washington's Farewell Address 1796

338 posted on 08/12/2019 7:11:25 AM PDT by OIFVeteran
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To: jeffersondem
Later in the address he discusses the permanency of the Union.

To the efficacy and permanency of your Union, a government for the whole is indispensable. No alliance, however strict, between the parts can be an adequate substitute; they must inevitably experience the infractions and interruptions which all alliances in all times have experienced. Sensible of this momentous truth, you have improved upon your first essay, by the adoption of a constitution of government better calculated than your former for an intimate union, and for the efficacious management of your common concerns. This government, the offspring of our own choice, uninfluenced and unawed, adopted upon full investigation and mature deliberation, completely free in its principles, in the distribution of its powers, uniting security with energy, and containing within itself a provision for its own amendment, has a just claim to your confidence and your support. Respect for its authority, compliance with its laws, acquiescence in its measures, are duties enjoined by the fundamental maxims of true liberty. The basis of our political systems is the right of the people to make and to alter their constitutions of government. But the Constitution which at any time exists, till changed by an explicit and authentic act of the whole people, is sacredly obligatory upon all. The very idea of the power and the right of the people to establish government presupposes the duty of every individual to obey the established government.

Notice where he states it can only be changed by an explicit and authentic act of the whole people. He doesn’t say by a state or a geographical area, the whole people.

339 posted on 08/12/2019 7:17:41 AM PDT by OIFVeteran
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To: jeffersondem
jeffersondem: " My guess is the reference to “while living” was superfluous chatter incorporated, perhaps unwittingly, to add credibility and gravitas to a claim that otherwise has neither. "

No it was in response to your claim our Founders could not have agreed with Madison because, as you said, "They were dead, Jim!"

It seemed a matter of unexpected confusion to jeffersondem, so I was careful to specify.

348 posted on 08/14/2019 7:51:04 AM PDT by BroJoeK ((a little historical perspective...))
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