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To: jeffersondem; OIFVeteran; HandyDandy; DiogenesLamp; Bubba Ho-Tep; rockrr; x; central_va
jeffersondem: "If, as you say, this private letter “remains the most explicit expression” of the view that the Constitution forbids secession, then Brother Joe your Mother Church has a weak foundation indeed."

Well... "Mother Church" is your term and certainly applies to the religion of Lost Cause insanity, though naturally, being a born Democrat, you can't help projecting your own pathologies onto others, it's what Democrats do, by nature.

Be that as it may...

Your comment regarding Madison's letter to Trist is reasonable, or it would be if it didn't sound so much like jeffersondem calling Madison a "yapping dog" for his old age.
Funny how that works, isn't it?
Madison lived to age 85, about the same as my Dad, and I know he was perfectly capable of rational thought up until the end, especially on subjects he'd spent a lifetime studying & explaining.
So at 79 in 1830, there's no reason to think Madison was not expressing his decades long strong beliefs.
That's #one.

But #two is what convinced me, and that is the fact that nobody has ever produced quotes from Founders which flat-out contradict Madison's words, not even Jefferson's.
Indeed, any quote I've ever seen from actual Founders fits very nicely into Madison's framework of "necessity" (usurpations or abuses) or "mutual consent" versus "at pleasure".

Of course if you have quotes from Founders which do directly contradict Madison, I'd be interested in them.
But my guess is that for every one you might produce which directly contradicts Madison, I could find several consistent with him.

252 posted on 04/29/2019 9:12:11 AM PDT by BroJoeK ((a little historical perspective...))
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To: BroJoeK; OIFVeteran; HandyDandy; DiogenesLamp; Bubba Ho-Tep; rockrr; x; central_va
“But #two is what convinced me, and that is the fact that nobody has ever produced quotes from Founders which flat-out contradict Madison's words, not even Jefferson's.”

One of the reason's Jefferson didn't contradict what Madison wrote in his 1830 letter to Nicholas Trist may be because Jefferson died in the year 1819.

George Washington died in 1799.

John Adams died in 1826.

Samuel Adams died in 1803; Franklin in 1790; Hancock 1793; George Wythe 1806; and so forth and so on.

By some accounts Madison was the last founding father to die so he got the last word - but he never repudiated the theory of consent of the governed.

253 posted on 04/30/2019 6:28:39 PM PDT by jeffersondem
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