Posted on 10/20/2018 7:40:49 PM PDT by iowamark
“Star of the West was an American civilian steamship that was launched in 1852 and scuttled by Confederate forces in 1863. In January 1861, the ship was hired by the government of the United States to transport military supplies and reinforcements to the U.S. military garrison of Fort Sumter. Cadets from The Citadel fired upon the ship...”
1. A ship was fired upon by military school boys. Yeah, that’s a valid casus belli.
2. Resupplying and reinforcing Sumpter was an act of war that precedes any action by the Confederacy.
“Cite a verifiable historical source for that statement.”
Verifiable? Really?
My great-grandparents were there, and they told my grandparents, who told my mother, who told me. Not good enough for you? Tough. That’s all the time I propose to spend on this.
Seems kinda odd that you would snip off the salient point from your wiki quote. You know, where your copy and paste clipped off, effectively the first shots fired in the American Civil War.[1][2]
“Seems kinda odd that you would snip off the salient point from your wiki quote.”
Seems kinda odd that a statement qualified with “effectively” would be seen as the salient point.
Where are the goal posts? First it was Sumpter that saw the first shots, now it’s some military school boys popping away at a ship—from the shore, one supposes.
I wonder if any of their bullets actually struck the ship.
Sure seems like you didnt even read the very short wiki piece. Else you wouldnt be wondering. Seems as like you just clipped what you thought would best support your notions and then followed it with your own personal editorializing.
“Sure seems like you didnt even read the very short wiki piece.”
That’s right. Nor is there any reason I should have, Captain Smarmy.
“Seems as like you just clipped what you thought would best support your notions”
Mind-reading eh? You can discern my intentions. Must be nice to have superpowers.
To employ my own powers, I suspect your familiarity with that insult accrued from having it directed at you many times.
In this case, there is nothing in the article that threatens to rebut anything I’ve said, which rather deflates your accusation.
“and then followed it with your own personal editorializing.”
You say that like it’s a bad thing. Is it only I who am forbidden to “editorialize,” or does your proscription apply to the entire Internet?
If you’re done making it personal, do you have anything to say about the topic?
Confederate artillery, confederate powder, confederate shot, being fired under orders a confederate officer. Doesn’t matter who pulled the lanyards.
“My great-grandparents were there”. Sort like Elizabeth Warren being told she was of native American descent, got it.
"At their discretion" is a more modern term, the term of art our Founders used is "at pleasure", which we still sometimes hear today in, for example, "the FBI director serves at the pleasure of the President who may fire him at pleasure, meaning for any reason whatever, or indeed for no reason."
That term "at pleasure" was never applied by any Founder to the subject of unilateral disunion.
Instead, to justify unilateral disunion they used "necessity", "necessary" conditions as defined in their own Declaration of Independence.
Of course, at pleasure secession was still acceptable to the Founders, just as in 1788, but only if by mutual consent.
To repeat: for unilateral secession our Founders believed you needed serious material breeches of contract such as they experienced and listed in the 1776 Declaration of Independence.
For at pleasure secession you need mutual consent such as they had in "seceding" from the old Articles of Confederation in 1788.
In 1860 secessionists had neither mutual consent for at pleasure disunion nor material breeches of compact to justify secession from necessity.
So they declared secession at pleasure, something no Founder ever proposed or supported.
“So they declared secession at pleasure, something no Founder ever proposed or supported.”
Tell that to the person who changed my argument regarding “states” to one involving the Founders.
“fired under orders a confederate officer. Doesnt matter who pulled the lanyards.”
Tell you what doesn’t matter: the truth, to you. The Confederacy did not yet exist at that time. Therefore, it was not Confederate artillery, Confederate powder, Confederate shot, or a Confederate officer.
What there was, was an act of war by Lincoln.
My great-grandparents were there. Sort like Elizabeth Warren being told she was of native American descent, got it.”
That’s your retort? Calling me a liar? All you “got” is “na-na-na-na boo-boo?”
Pathetic.
“In 1860 secessionists had neither mutual consent for at pleasure disunion nor material breeches of compact to justify secession from necessity.”
Historical perspective? Not on your side of the argument.
http://bonniebluepublishing.com/The%20Right%20of%20Secession.htm
Substitute South Carolina for Confederate, that fixes that problem. An unarmed ship is not a provocation in international law. Lincoln was not President at the time. President Buchanan ordered Star of the West to resupply Fort Sumter.
Based on DNA Elizabeth Warren didn’t lie either. Not calling you a liar. Oral family traditions are sometimes distorted over several generations of retelling and make for suspect history.
“An unarmed ship is not a provocation in international law.”
A ship carrying war materiel can be.
“Now it is some school boys popping away at a ship-from shore”.
The battery at Morris Island was equipped with 8 inch guns.
The “School Boys” fired under the orders of an officer of the South Carolina Militia.
“I wonder if the bullets actually struck the ship.”
8 inch artillery projectiles are not bullets. Star of the West was hit 3 times by the guns on Morris Island. But she was not seriously damaged and no crewman were injured.
“The School Boys fired under the orders of an officer of the South Carolina Militia.”
There’s no need to put the words “school boys” in danger quotes. That is exactly what they were. School boys, not trained artillery men.
The hit Star of the West three times. They were under the supervision of a trained SC militia officer. Still an act of war regardless.
Your words here suggest your Mencken quote may have mentioned other factors than "self-determination" or "right to govern themselves", but in this particular quote he didn't.
So "all about" is a fair summary.
"Lincoln's war" is not.
dsc: "Fake news, fake history.
Lincoln committed several acts of war prior to Sumpter, which the intellectually honest reader of history must accept."
Well.. first of all there's nothing "intellectually honest" in Lost Causer mythology, it's all a pack of lies.
But to your point, Confederates began waging war in December 1860 with seizures of dozens of major Union properties including forts, ships, arsenals & mints.
These seizures continued until only Forts Sumter, SC, & Pickens, FL, remained in Union hands.
In addition, Confederates threatened Union officials and fired on Union ships, all with no military response from President Buchanan.
Lincoln's only alleged "acts of war" before Fort Sumter were his sending of resupply missions to Union troops in Union forts, no more "acts of war" than any the US Navy might do today.
quoting BJK: "Further, what you like to call 'secede' or 'withdraw' is more accurately described as conquest and invasion..."
dsc: "Utter horseshit."
Only even possible because you left out the rest of my sentence:
Can you name for us even one state where a single Japanese soldier (let alone army) invaded, or raided, for even one day?"
So, unlike some Lost Causers, you don't subscribe to an unlimited "right to secede", but do admit to certain restrictions on it?
dsc: "Boy, you are really the king of the false moral equivalence, arent you?
Surely I dont have to explain this."
Just so we're clear on it, according to dsc: when Virginians secede that's A-OK but when West Virginians secede, that's not OK because West Virginians are not allowed "self-determination" or "right to govern themselves" because... why?
dsc on Sherman's "war crimes": "Oh, yes, more so.
Much more so.
All the alleged Confederate atrocities together dont approach what Sherman did on his march to the sea."
First, there's a long list of Confederate atrocities before Sherman's "march to the sea".
Second, when historians tried to find evidence for allegations of "atrocity" against Sherman, there wasn't any -- no contemporary news reports, no personal letters, no grave yards full of Sherman's alleged murdered civilians.
What Sherman did do was take food supplies & contraband, and he burned buildings in places that shot at his men.
In short, he did nothing different than any number of Confederate armies in Union regions.
And one thing Sherman never did was grab freed-blacks for sale in Confederate slave markets.
dsc: "You know, even though slavery is a moral evil, black slavery in America is not the worst thing that ever happened on the face of the earth.
Shermans murders of women and children were a worse crime than returning some blacks to slavery."
Well, the big difference is that those alleged murders are pure Lost Causer fantasy while Confederate army seizures of freedmen for return to slavery, those are historical facts.
quoting BJK: "So who, exactly, was guilty of 'war crimes'?
dsc: "Sherman.
And, after the fact, those who rewrite history."
But rewriting history is the very definition of Lost Cause mythology, it's what you people do, naturally, instinctively, you just can't help yourselves, can you?
The historical fact is Civil War was plenty brutal, but there's no evidence for exaggerated claims against Sherman and there is evidence of Confederates committing their own fair share of atrocities against Union civilians.
jefferdondem: "Thats not what Abraham Lincoln said."
A very young Abe Lincoln did once argue for a seemingly unlimited "right of secession", but even then young Lincoln recognized the reality that secessionists must have the capabilities needed for success.
In office, so far as I know, Old Abraham Lincoln never argued against secession itself, but did resist Confederate military aggressions against the Union.
As the war dragged on, Lincoln's war-goals grew eventually including complete abolition and citizenship for freedmen.
Yes when looking for the underlying truth of a matter then who better to get it from than a newspaper satirist?
But in order to "strain out a gnat" of Lincoln's resupply missions to Sumter & Pickens, we must first "swallow the camel" of Confederate seizures of dozens of Union forts, ships, arsenal, mints, etc., threats against Union officials and firings on Union ships.
Further, how do we ignore the fact that Jefferson Davis had already ordered (note the date) Forts Sumter & Pickens taken by force, if necessary?
"The case of Pensacola [Fort Pickens] then is reduced [to] the more palpable elements of a military problem and your measures may without disturbing views be directed to the capture of Fort Pickens and the defence of the harbor.
You will soon have I hope a force sufficient to occupy all the points necessary for that end.
As many additional troops as may be required can be promptly furnished."
[Jefferson Davis to Braxton Bragg, 3 Apr 1861]"
“A very young Abe Lincoln did once argue for a seemingly unlimited “right of secession” . . . “
The “very young” rail splitter was age 39 at the time. Under the constitution, he could have been elected president at age 35.
And Thomas Jefferson was 33 years old when he penned the Declaration of Independence.
What is your point?
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