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To: wardaddy; SunkenCiv

“it’s about 1000 nautical from Elat to Yemen”

But only about 20 miles across the Bab al Mandeb, between ancient Ethiopia and Yemen.

“How fast could slaves row those unwieldy vessels?”

The later 8th century BC) Greek Trireme (crewed by free sailors) could routinely row about 50-60 miles a day (Thucydides mentions a trireme travelling 300 kilometres in one day). Six knots was a leisurely cruising speed. Likely the older Phoenician/Egyptian ships were somewhat less efficient.

Galley ships that combined sail and oars were common in Late Bronze Age antiquity, including the time of Hatshepsut (~1,500 BC). Trade goods were exchanged over a wide range range of cultures around the Mediterranean, and inland across Persian areas, such as lapis lazuli from Afghanistan.

Around 1,200 BC, there was a collapse like the Dark Ages in Europe (the time of the “Sea Peoples” invasions), but 100-200 years later Phoenician ships had re-established regular establish trade around the entirety of the Mediterranean and Black Seas (1177 B.C.: The Year Civilization Collapsed, https://www.amazon.com/1177-B-C-Civilization-Collapsed-Turning/dp/0691168385 ).

“But before the time of Solomon they (Phoencian ships) had passed the Pillars of Hercules (Gibraltar Strait), and affronted the dangers of the Atlantic. Their frail and small vessels, scarcely bigger than modern fishing-smacks, proceeded southwards along the West African coast, as far as the tract watered by the Gambia and Senegal, while northwards they ...ventured across the mouth of the English Channel” (https://phoenicia.org/ships.html ). So the nautical technology existed at Egyptian ports on the Mediteranean, the Nile and the Red Sea.

Egypt had a standing navy during the 17th and 18th Dynasties (Hatshepsut reigned during the 18th), as demonstrated by The Siege of Avaris in the Nile delta, against the Hyksos (c. 1550 BC) by Ahmose I, the founder of the Eighteenth Dynasty. They ran reed ships on the Nile, but imported wood from Lebanon for their sea-going ships, as well as getting whole ships as tribute and through purchase. Phoenicians (and pre-Phoenician people along the Lebanese coast - Byblos to the Egyptians) were probably the best ship builders of the day, if a powerful kingdom was looking to acquire good ships.

“In the Eighteenth Dynasty of Egypt, Hatshepsut built a Red Sea fleet to facilitate trade between the head of the Gulf of Aqaba and points south as far as Punt to bring mortuary goods to Karnak in exchange for Nubian gold. Hatshepsut personally made the most famous ancient Egyptian expedition that sailed to Punt. During the reign of Queen Hatshepsut in the 15th century BC, ships regularly crossed the Red Sea in order to obtain bitumen, copper, carved amulets, naptha and other goods transported overland and down the Dead Sea to Elat at the head of the gulf of Aqaba where they were joined with frankincense and myrrh coming north both by sea and overland along trade routes through the mountains running north along the east coast of the Red Sea” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Punt)

So nautical trade and government relations were routine around the Red Sea in 1,500 BC - Eilat to Yemen, Ethiopia to Egypt. Just walking the coastlines and sailing 20 miles across the Bab al Mandeb in the South, or crossing the Sinai in the North were also routinely possible. 1,000 miles from Eilat to Yemen is less than half the distance that Appalachian Trail through hikers walk for fun over the Summer - without horses or camels, which were in wide use before 1,500 BC.

Trade between Ethiopia and Egypt preceded Hapshetsut by thousands of years - 90% of Nile water originates from Ethiopia.

I have no particular theory I am promoting on who the Queen of Sheba was. My point is that the logistics of the day make it possible for Sheba of the day to be on the Arabian Peninsula (Yemen, Oman, Saudia Arabia), Egypt, or Ethiopia (Horn of Africa region). They all were in contact, through diplomatic and trade contacts. That is true whether you theorize Solomon’s reign to be during the time of Hatshepsut (starting 1,478 BC), or the more conventionally accepted period (starting 970 BC). It is of note that all those regions speak languages of the Semitic family group today - Arabic, Hebrew, Ethiopian Amharic.

Additionally, Sheba like any other ancient Kingdom, likely had borders that fluctuated over time - royal marriages could unite countries for one generation, and they could then be divided among the children. That was a common phenomena. Local military alliances and tribute relationships of a “Greater Sheba” would also wax and wane over the generations with changes in the economy, military balance and the capability/popularity of individual leaders. So the term Sheba might be used at one point in history to refer to territory that was not part at another point in history - or even just to a wider area that might only share cultural or ethnic similarity.

Maybe the climate was different, or people deliberately cultivated it elsewhere, but today the great concentration of frankincense trees is along the NE coast of of Somaliland/Somalia at the very Horn of Africa, with other significant traditional production along the coast of Western Oman/Eastern Yemen.


39 posted on 10/21/2018 11:35:33 AM PDT by BeauBo
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To: BeauBo

That’s a lot of info

I was questioning the logistics since long distance sailing is something I know a bit about

I had no clue how slave galleys go speed wise

They were shallow draft cumbersome things.....the rams were very light for speed with sharp tip so they say

I think I read about 10 knots with Is max for short distance in decent seas with right winds and more like 4-5 normal which is still kicking.....

Did the Israelites have slave galleys?

Ancient times seafaring was more risky and slower than today


40 posted on 10/21/2018 11:54:49 AM PDT by wardaddy (I donÂ’t care that youÂ’re not a racist......when the shooting starts it wonÂ’t matter what you were)
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To: BeauBo
Additionally, all those dates are wrong, and there was no longterm kingdom of Saba -- it's a modern myth invented to solve a couple of artificially created questions.

44 posted on 10/21/2018 7:51:21 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (and btw -- https://www.gofundme.com/for-rotator-cuff-repair-surgery)
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