Poles apart: the bitter conflict over a nation’s communist history

The Guardian ^ | Jul 2018 | Matthew Luxmore

[CondoleezzaProtege]

In April 2007, the former Soviet republic of Estonia decided to relocate a monument of gratitude out of the centre of its capital city, Tallinn. The bronze statue depicts a pensive soldier with his head bowed, one hand holding a helmet and the other curled into a fist.

For Estonia’s Russian minority, it was a symbol of the country’s liberation from fascism by the Red Army. For Estonians, it was a reminder of the country’s occupation by the Soviet Union.

On 26 April, as authorities cordoned off the monument in preparation for its removal, hundreds of ethnic Russians descended on the area...Over the next three days, riots swept across Estonia in the worst case of unrest the tiny Baltic state had seen since the second world war. One man died from stab wounds and 100 others were injured. A massive wave of cyber-attacks coincided with the riots, crippling government institutions.

There is unlikely to be a repeat of such violence in Poland. The country’s small Russian community can still pay homage to its own heroes undisturbed. On 9 May, its members gathered at the Soviet military cemetery in Warsaw, where an estimated 22,000 Red Army soldiers lie buried...Sergei Andreev, Russia’s ambassador to Poland, looked on.

Andreev was defiant. “Poland and the Polish nation exist today on this land thanks to the Red Army’s victory in that war, at the cost of the lives of those 600,000 soldiers and officers who died here,” ...“Those monuments are to them.” On the wall of his office hung photos of a grandfather who died in the war and two grandparents who survived it. “This is a foreign country, and we cannot lay down the law here. But one thing is clear,” he said. “We will not forget this, and we will not forgive.”

[BBell]

And history would be changed. The Germans could have had their 1000 year Reich if they would have incorporated the Jews instead of killing them but we know that was never going to happen.

[Rashputin]

"This is a foreign country, and we cannot lay down the law here."

There's a real simple solution to this situation.

Move to Russia, buy a piece of property, and ask the Poles to ship the monuments to your land in Russia rather than tearing them down.

You admit it's not your country so why are you still there?

Sorry, but STFU.

[pierrem15]

You forgot to mention the nearly two centuries of Russian occupation and barbarism under the Tsars: the deportations of Poles to Siberia started long before Stalin.

[dfwgator]

Indeed.

[pierrem15]

Not to mention that the Russians were shipped in after a large percentage of the population were deported: I think Latvia had 40% of its population shipped to Siberia.

Between October 1939 and June 1941, almost 1.1 million Poles were deported via cattle car to Siberia, of whom almost 600,000 died either during transport or shortly afterwards.

Eff the Russians.

[pierrem15]

Not sure I would lump the Estonians in with the Latvians and Lithuanians. Only 4,300 Jews lived there before the war, generally with good relations with the Estonians. Most fled as the Germans advanced (about 10% had already been deported by the Soviets).

There were Estonian Waffen SS, but mainly because the Germans had no way of integrating non-Germans into the Wehrmacht, so local levies were raised, trained and equipped by the Waffen SS.

[pierrem15]

My belief, by the way, is that Poland would have joined the war on the German side if Pilsudski had lived. When Pilsudski died, Hitler gave him a mock state funeral in Berlin, much to the astonishment of the Nazi establishment.

Pilsudski came from a minor Polish noble family and had enlisted Poles to fight alongside the Germans in WWI against Russia in exchange for independence. Hitler admired him for his nationalism, respected him as a war fighter and knew that with him, Poland could have been a valuable ally. I believe he liked him personally also, as I think Pilsudki is the only aristocratic military commander who treated him as an equal. If Poland had gone in on the German side, I think it would have protected its Jews just as the Horvath government had done in Hungary, before the Arrow Cross coup d'etat.

[dfwgator]

Also, when the Nazis invaded, he had an honor guard posted at Pilsudski's grave in Krakow. It's one of the great "What ifs", if Piłsudski had lived to 1939.

[Jimmy Valentine]

They are doing the same in Ukraine. A big statue of Lenin was pounded into pea gravel a few years ago in Kiev.

[T-Bone Texan]

Poland is said to be the only country that was completely wiped off the map 3 separate times and yet came back fighting!

[Buckeye McFrog]

I know there were Lithuanians who preferred Nazi occupation over Soviet occupation.

I know a lady who was born in Lithuania. When the war broke out her parents faced a choice. Do we want to raise these children under Hitler or Stalin?

They chose Hitler. They moved to Germany and became guest workers in a munitions plant. At least until the RAF bombed their house into rubble. They ended up in a refugee camp, and eventually, here.

[BBell]

A friend of mine Grandpa came over from Lithuania to escaped the Soviets. My friend absolutely hates Russians. He gets pissed off when I remind him that they were Soviets, not Russians and when I remind him that Stalin was Georgian.

[Jack Black]

No. It’s very different. The Soviets invaded Poland WITH Hitler in 1939.

It would be more like Atlanta tearing down statues of Sherman, but none were ever erected.

[Jack Black]

Fascinating post! Thanks.

[Jack Black]

An interesting factoid is that whole Poland was indeed wiped off the map, their army took exile and continued to fight. Several times. The Polish bastions anthem begins with Congress about “as we are in Italy”

[kearnyirish2]

When the wall came down and the USSR collapsed, the Soviets admitted that during WWII they had sent provocateurs behind the lines to harass the Germans - with the express purpose of triggering retribution against the Ukrainian population (successfully).

It speaks volumes that just about every country bordering the USSR in 1941 supported the Axis; the West paid a price for failing to protect Europe from communism in the 1920s and 30s - starting with attempted communist takeovers in Germany and Italy.