Posted on 07/04/2018 7:22:43 AM PDT by OneVike
Important correction: In the Declaration, rights come from our their creator.
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That’s okay. I just will never view the Constitution as Holy. If it was Holy, God would be the focus.
That’s just my opinion.
tl;dr
To me it’s been the declaration is why we’re rebeling and the constitution is how we will run our new country.
I also keep in mind that the great distance and logistical problem we were for Britain played to our advantage. Had we been Ireland all the leaders would have been drawn and quartered and the punitive measures against the population would have been horrendous.
Yep. "In the year of the Lord" means "Anno Domini" which is AD. It is correct to write AD 1787, 1787 AD not so correct.
https://web.archive.org/web/20020807091322/http://usconservatives.about.com:80/library/weekly/aaundergoda.htm
A Nation of States, Under God
Founders Did Not Envision Separation of Religion and State
Church-state separatists often cite the writings of Thomas Jefferson and James Madison as proof that the founders were not Christian -- or even religious -- in order to spin the First Amendment's establishment clause to mean that religion and government must be kept separate. Of course, opposing quotes from Patrick Henry, George Washington, and others are often cited as proof that religious principles were considered the foundation for governing the new republic and thought to be essential to its continuation. Even Jefferson and Madison encouraged and attended church services in the House of Representatives and in executive branch buildings during their presidencies.
The majority of the state constitutions existing at the time the federal Constitution's signing explicitly endorsed and established Christian principles in the state governments (see relevant excerpts below). The new federal Constitution did not replace those state constitutions. It was created to establish and limit the powers of the new national government. The Library of Congress' excellent exhibit on the subject ("Religion and the Founding of the American Republic") summarizes this neglected bit of history:
The Constitution was reticent about religion for two reasons: first, many delegates were committed federalists, who believed that the power to legislate on religion, if it existed at all, lay within the domain of the state, not the national, governments; second, the delegates believed that it would be a tactical mistake to introduce such a politically controversial issue as religion into the Constitution. The only "religious clause" in the document--the proscription of religious tests as qualifications for federal office in Article Six--was intended to defuse controversy by disarming potential critics who might claim religious discrimination in eligibility for public office.
That religion was not otherwise addressed in the Constitution did not make it an "irreligious" document any more than the Articles of Confederation was an "irreligious" document. The Constitution dealt with the church precisely as the Articles had, thereby maintaining, at the national level, the religious status quo. In neither document did the people yield any explicit power to act in the field of religion. But the absence of expressed powers did not prevent either the Continental-Confederation Congress or the Congress under the Constitution from sponsoring a program to support general, nonsectarian religion.
Obviously, Jefferson's oft-quoted phrase, "separation of church of state," did not mean that religion or references to God should be absent from government. Rather, the founders' intent was to prevent the potential abuses made possible by a powerful, state-sponsored denomination (the "church" in "separation of church and state") like the Church of England.
The Constitution of North Carolina, 1776: XXXII. That no person, who shall deny the being of God or the truth of the Protestant religion, or the divine authority either of the Old or New Testaments, or who shall hold religious principles incompatible with the freedom and safety of the State, shall be capable of holding any office or place of trust or profit in the civil department within this State.
The Constitution of Delaware, 1776: ART. 22. Every person who shall be chosen a member of either house, or appointed to any office or place of trust, before taking his seat, or entering upon the execution of his office, shall take the following oath, or affirmation, if conscientiously scrupulous of taking an oath, to wit:
" I, A B. will bear true allegiance to the Delaware State, submit to its constitution and laws, and do no act wittingly whereby the freedom thereof may be prejudiced."
And also make and subscribe the following declaration, to wit:
" I, A B. do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the holy scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."
The Constitution of Maryland, 1776: XXXIII. That, as it is the duty of every man to worship God in such manner as he thinks most acceptable to him; all persons, professing the Christian religion, are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty; wherefore no person ought by any law to be molested in his person or estate on account of his religious persuasion or profession, or for his religious practice; unless, under colour of religion, any man shall disturb the good order, peace or safety of the State, or shall infringe the laws of morality, or injure others, in their natural, civil, or religious rights; nor ought any person to be compelled to frequent or maintain, or contribute, unless on contract, to maintain any particular place of worship, or any particular ministry; yet the Legislature may, in their discretion, lay a general and equal tax for the support of the Christian religion; leaving to each individual the power of appointing the payment over of the money, collected from him, to the support of any particular place of worship or minister, or for the benefit of the poor of his own denomination, or the poor in general of any particular county�
XXXV. That no other test or qualification ought to be required, on admission to any office of trust or profit, than such oath of support and fidelity to this State, and such oath of office, as shall be directed by this Convention or the Legislature of this State, and a declaration of a belief in the Christian religion
The Constitution of New Jersey, 1776: XVIII. That no person shall ever, within this Colony, be deprived of the inestimable privilege of worshipping Almighty God in a manner, agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience; nor, under any presence whatever, be compelled to attend any place of worship, contrary to his own faith and judgment; nor shall any person, within this Colony, ever be obliged to pay tithes, taxes, or any other rates, for the purpose of building or repairing any other church or churches, place or places of worship, or for the maintenance of any minister or ministry, contrary to what he believes to be right, or has deliberately or voluntarily engaged himself to perform.
XIX. That there shall be no establishment of any one religious sect in this Province, in preference to another; and that no Protestant inhabitant of this Colony shall be denied the enjoyment of any civil right, merely on account of his religious principles; but that all persons, professing a belief in the faith of any Protestant sect. who shall demean themselves peaceably under the government, as hereby established, shall be capable of being elected into any office of profit or trust, or being a member of either branch of the Legislature, and shall fully and freely enjoy every privilege and immunity, enjoyed by others their fellow subjects.
The Constitution of New York, 1777: XXXVIII. And whereas we are required, by the benevolent principles of rational liberty, not only to expel civil tyranny, but also to guard against that spiritual oppression and intolerance wherewith the bigotry and ambition of weak and wicked priests and princes have scourged mankind, this convention doth further, in the name and by the authority of the good people of this State, ordain, determine, and declare, that the free exercise and enjoyment of religious profession and worship, without discrimination or preference, shall forever hereafter be allowed, within this State, to all mankind: Provided, That the liberty of conscience, hereby granted, shall not be so construed as to excuse acts of licentiousness, or justify practices inconsistent with the peace or safety of this State.
XXXIX. And whereas the ministers of the gospel are, by their profession, dedicated to the service of God and the care of souls, and ought not to be diverted from the great duties of their function; therefore, no minister of the gospel, or priest of any denomination whatsoever, shall, at any time hereafter, under any presence or description whatever, be eligible to, or capable of holding, any civil or military office or place within this State.
The Constitution of Pennsylvania, 1776: SECT. 10. A quorum of the house of representatives shall consist of two-thirds of the whole number of members elected; and having met and chosen their speaker, shall each of them before they proceed to business take and subscribe� And each member, before he takes his seat, shall make and subscribe the following declaration, viz:
I do believe in one God, the creator and governor of the universe, the rewarder of the good and the punisher of the wicked. And I do acknowledge the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by Divine inspiration.
The Constitution of South Carolina, 1778: XXXVIII. That all persons and religious societies who acknowledge that there is one God, and a future state of rewards and punishments, and that God is publicly to be worshipped, shall be freely tolerated. The Christian Protestant religion shall be deemed, and is hereby constituted and declared to be, the established religion of this State. That all denominations of Christian Protestants in this State, demeaning themselves peaceably and faithfully, shall enjoy equal religious and civil privileges. To accomplish this desirable purpose without injury to the religious property of those societies of Christians which are by law already incorporated for the purpose of religious worship, and to put it fully into the power of every other society of Christian Protestants, either already formed or hereafter to be formed, to obtain the like incorporation, it is hereby constituted, appointed, and declared that the respective societies of the Church of England that are already formed in this State for the purpose of religious worship shall still continue incorporate and hold the religious property now in their possession. And that whenever fifteen or more male persons, not under twenty-one years of age, professing the Christian Protestant religion, and agreeing to unite themselves In a society for the purposes of religious worship, they shall, (on complying with the terms hereinafter mentioned,) be, and be constituted a church, and be esteemed and regarded in law as of the established religion of the State, and on a petition to the legislature shall be entitled to be incorporated and to enjoy equal privileges. That every society of Christians so formed shall give themselves a name or denomination by which they shall be called and known in law, and all that associate with them for the purposes of worship shall be esteemed as belonging to the society so called. But that previous to the establishment and incorporation of the respective societies of every denomination as aforesaid, and in order to entitle them thereto, each society so petitioning shall have agreed to and subscribed in a book the following five articles, without which no agreement fir union of men upon presence of religion shall entitle them to be incorporated and esteemed as a church of the established religion of this State:
1st. That there is one eternal God, and a future state of rewards and punishments.
2d. That God is publicly to be worshipped.
3d. That the Christian religion is the true religion
4th. That the holy scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are of divine inspiration, and are the rule of faith and practice.
5th. That it is lawful and the duty of every man being thereunto called by those that govern, to bear witness to the truth.
Constitution of Vermont, 1786: Chap. I - III. That all men have a natural and unalienable right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own consciences and understandings, as In their opinion shall be regulated by the word of God; and that no man ought, or of right can be compelled to attend any religious worship, or erect or support any place of worship, or maintain any minister, contrary to the dictates of his conscience; nor can any man be justly deprived or abridged of any civil right as a citizen, on account of his religious sentiments, or peculiar mode of religious worship; and that no authority can, or ought to be vested in, or assumed by any power whatsoever, that shall in any case interfere with, or in any manner control the rights of conscience, in the free exercise of religious worship: Nevertheless, every sect or denomination of Christians ought to observe the Sabbath or Lord's day, and keep up some sort of religious worship, which to them shall seem most agreeable to the revealed will of God.
Chap. II - XXXVIII. Laws for the encouragement of virtue, and prevention of vice and immorality, ought to be constantly kept in force, and duly executed; and a competent number of schools ought to be maintained in each town for the convenient instruction of youth; and one or more grammar schools be incorporated, and properly supported in each county in this State. And all religious societies, or bodies of men, that may be hereafter united or incorporated, for the advancement of religion and learning, or for other pious and charitable purposes, shall be encouraged and protected in the enjoyment of the privileges, immunities, and estates, which they in justice ought to enjoy, under such regulations as the General Assembly of this State shall direct.
The Constitution of Virginia, 1776: SEC. 16. That religion, or the duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other.
The Constitution of Georgia, 1777: ART. VI. The representatives shall be chosen out of the residents in each county, who shall have resided at least twelve months in this State, and three months in the county where they shall be elected � and they shall be of the Protestant religion, and of the age of twenty-one years�
I wasn’t directly quoting it, I was saying what it communicated. That OUR rights come from our creator and are the natural condition of mankind. When rights are taken away that is an unnatural state. That is what Kings do, that is what governments do. They were attempting to construct a government subservient to the people, designed to protect their rights and nothing else
They capitalized everything—and also stuck commas in where they didn’t belong, creating problems for us even today. Don’t look to the copyediting skills of the founders to figure out whether we should have a secular government or a theocracy.
Well stated!
They all loved God. That is evident in many places other than the Constitution. But it is there too, notable by its absence.
In other words, that’s exactly why it is so remarkable and laudable that they kept Him out of the document: They knew you had to decide for yourself if you were one of God’s people, and if you put it in the law you are fouling the whole batch. Seems like such a minor—and even controversial—point to some, but it is the backbone of our nation. We love God but do not in any way coerce others to honor Him. We give them the priceless gift of their own conscience in the matter.
They were Protestants, remember. The Catholic Church didn’t get around to dealing rigorously with the issue of conscience until the first years of Vatican II (most of the things in Vatican II that Catholics object to came with the next pope, not John XXIII). The Baptists, with their concept of baptism by personal commitment, have been called the heirs of the Puritans. And they were the heirs of 18th-century enlightenment, and so are we.
Thank you, Lord, for the razor-sharp minds of our founders.
They left it out of the hands of the feds. They left it to the states and the people, in the all-important 10th amendment. Sheer genius.
It’s not holy. It’s the guardian of the holy. And the unholy.
That’s why it’s not correct to use the phrase “desecrate the flag,” although Merriam-Webster will allow any usage whatsoever.
LOL. Well, that’s another matter, which I am constantly correcting!
Secular in that ‘men/state’ is God? Man/woman, since the Garden Party thinks they can do things better.
Let’s not forget that Puritans used hang Quakers. They left England to establish a Puritan state where Puritan Anglicanism— a.k.a Congregationalism —could be practiced. They did not leave England to establish a state where people were free to practice whatever religion they wanted. It is incorrect to say the Puritans wanted freedom of religion; they did not. They wanted to be able to practice their own religion freely. Those are two very different things.
No, they never set the federal government up as God. Another historical item to remember is that they had recently shed their blood to fight tyranny. If anyone knew better, it was them.
Some people prefer to say that the evangelicals are the heirs of the Puritans. In one important way, they are. They are both invisible.
-PJ
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