Posted on 08/31/2017 9:19:47 PM PDT by Arthur McGowan
Let’s try and be charitable with each other here. Arthur’s not a troll, nor an idiot.
And I don’t agree with him at all on this, but FR *is* a discussion forum and not an insult forum, so if you have counter-evidence by all means cite it. Even if you don’t convince him, you may convince someone reading.
To get children to adulthood safely it is sometimes necessary to be the bad guy.
Electric sockets, running into traffic, reaching for pots on the hot stove need a very strong signal that will be remembered. In a loving home a spank is rare, unexpected and creates a red line to help keep a child safe.
No. Spanking is but one of the ways to discipline a child. Sometimes it is the tool that is right for the job at hand.
I am a very gentle person but in raising children it is important that they know the buck stops with you and there are consequences. It must be done when they are young because then its a habit as they get older and you don’t need to discipline them. If you need to discipline an older child the game is lost and you can no longer keep them safe.
Few rules but those rules are kept. When mine were growing up each crossed the lines once where they needed an emphatic lesson. They remembered and that issue was closed. For everyday, sit on the steps, go to your room or pouring a glass of water over their heads was enough.
You will either police yourself, or you will be policed. And you won't like it.
This fundamental truth applies both to individual and group conduct. Judicious spanking teaches this fundamental truth efficiently and directly. Ignore it at your peril.
Exactly right. There are many fine sharp minds that look for ways to outsmart, evade, ridicule and basically create chaos. They need to be channeled. Much of that work can be done by discussion and modeling good behavior but first their attention needs to be captured.
My third son was about to be expelled from preK because the teachers were so sweet and mushy my son was running roughshod over them.
When I was approached I said, “Give me 2 weeks”. He had always been obedient with me because he knew I wouldn’t stand for bad behavior (no spankings up til then, just consistent time out etc). I made up an index card with columns for main teacher and art, gym etc. Each day each teacher had to put a smiley face, a straight face or a frowney face in her column for that day and tell him what they wanted. Stay in line, don’t talk etc.
First day 5 frowney faces 5 stinging swaps on his bottom. Second day 3, third day 1 and a mountain of excuses why he shouldn’t have gotten one. I responded. “I’m not there, all I know is the cards, it’s your job to get smiles. No more frowns and since he got a star for each smile he earned enough to go for ice cream. He stayed in that school through 8th grade and then went to catholic High School. Never needed another spanking but all the words in the world wouldn’t have substituted for the spanks he needed and received. He retained enough intelligence to become a chemical engineer and get a MBA.
Frankly, more harm is done by parents who emotionally abuse their children. If between the ages of 3 and 6, a child is spanked with one minor hand slap on the clothed backside or the hand, after they disobeyed in a dangerous way, from a thoroughly honest and loving devoted parent, no harm is done. It must come with a short explanation and when the child displays the opposite, good behavior in that same situation another time (say, dashing away in a parking lot), they should receive the opposite treatment, say a big ice cream cone, for staying safe.
But MANY parents lie to their children. Many neglect their children and leave them with adults who molest them (because they want to go do something so Uncle Steve or Mommy’s Boyfriend will do as a babysitter). Many subtly expose their children to horrible adult situations. Many parents mistreat their children deliberately or abandon them while they take drugs or are otherwise hands off.
We are listening to Laura Ingalls Wilder stories in the car these days on the way to school. When she disobeyed her Pa, he got a switch and hit her with it, because if she ever disobeyed him, it could result in death for all family member. Wild animals and Indians were life threatening. It isn’t a great thing, and I would never hit a child with an object, but he loved his kids and needed total obedience from them for survival.
See, proper use of negative feedback is all that is needed.
Some people overreact and think spankings are some kind of child abuse.
snowflakes
No it is not.
You need to go back to the original languages
It is the same word as seen in psalm 23....Thy rod and Thy staff
I can see how it might appear dumb to a person with limited knowledge of the definition of the word "discipline."
Antanaclasis is a linguistic device wherein the similar words are repeated several times in the same phrase or sentence but each time with different meanings. For instance,
“The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.”
In this case,
DISCIPLINE [training that corrects, molds, or perfects the mental faculties or moral character]
must be administered with
DISCIPLINE [self-control].
Allow me to simplify:
Children should never be punished in anger. A parent's emotion should not enter into the punishment of a child. The purpose of punishment is for the training of the child, not for cruelty, revenge or any other personal reasons.
Therefore, the means and severity of punishment should be tempered by self-control. For example, a boy spilling his milk at the table should receive a verbal admonishment to be more careful, but screaming and humiliation would not be a "disciplined" discipline. On the other end of the spectrum, if a child sticks a fork into a power recepticle, a hand slap or a pop on the butt accompanied by a raised voice would be appropriate for the safety of the child, while a gentle response (out of tender emotion) would be counter-productive.
I strongly suspect what most opponents of spanking envision is some kind of beating of the child, which would not be disciplined discipline.
Heretic as you are, you tried this before , and what i said then still applies:
The notion that it is is okay to construe Biblical physical discipline of children as beating them senseless, or that judicious, measured physical discipline of children is not okay if warranted, is a liberal, anti-Christ, anti-Biblical and anti-civilizational idea. The same hands that hug sometimes also may need to spank, with some children it being more often needful than others. "Time outs" can teach a child how to simply do time, and whether here or in Hell, a soul will learn there are literally painful consequences for disobeying God's law and valid authority.
And which you are guilty of in attacking the clear wisdom of the word of God:
The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame. (Proverbs 29:15)
He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes. (Proverbs 13:24)
Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him. (Proverbs 22:15)
Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying. (Proverbs 19:18)
Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. (Proverbs 23:13-14)
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. (Hebrews 12:6)
For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth. (Proverbs 3:12)
Excellent.
I’m with you in spirit, but I need to point out that those are the words of Solomon, not God.
Three engineering students were gathered together discussing the possible designers of the human body. One said, “It was a mechanical engineer. Just look at all the joints.”
Another said, “No, it was an electrical engineer. The nervous system has many thousands of electrical connections.”
The last said, “Actually it was a civil engineer. Who else would run a toxic waste pipeline through a recreational area?”
The word translated “beat” in Proverbs 23:13-14 is Hebrew “nakah”, and it definitely means to strike physically, whether lightly or severely. So yes, the rod here (from Hebrew “shebet”, a small tree branch) is most assuredly an instrument for corporal punishment.
I was spanked almost daily. If Dad had a bad day, we all suffered. Mom said I was black and blue while in the crib because I cried. Not a good childhood.
A shrink I saw in my 30s tested me and said she would help me with the Mensa paperwork if I wanted her to. I didn’t. So massive beatings be Dad don’t make a difference.
Even if that was true, wisdom is not determined by I.Q., which atheists boast they overall test higher in. And
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever. (Psalms 111:10)
And while you call yourself a pastor (even if an unScriptural NT "priest" ), yet your church even believes corporal punishment is sanctioned in church discipline (or has that also been changed?):
The Church has the right, as a perfect and independent society provided with all the means for attaining its end, to decide according to its laws disputes arising concerning its internal affairs, epecially as to the ecclesiastical rights of its members, also to to carry out its decision, if necessary, by suitable means of compulsion , contentious or civil jurisdiction. It has, therefore, the right to admonish or warn its members, ecclesiastical or lay, who have not conformed to its laws and also, if needful to punish them by physical means, that is, coercive jurisdiction . — Catholic Encyclopedia Jurisdiction CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction
5 stars!
Those who are not sufficiently controlled from within, by God and a sound conscience, must sooner or later be controlled from without, necessitating the growth of civil government. Robert Winthrop (May 12, 1809 – November 16, 1894), and Speaker of the House from 1838 to 1840, and later president of the Massachusetts Bible Society, explained that, “All societies of men must be governed in some way or other. The less they may have of stringent State Government, the more they must have of individual self-government. The less they rely on public law or physical force, the more they must rely on private moral restraint. Men, in a word, must necessarily be controlled, either by a power within them, or by a power without them; either by the Word of God, or by the strong arm of man; either by the Bible, or by the bayonet. It may do for other countries and other governments to talk about the State supporting religion. Here, under our own free institutions, it is Religion which must support the State." (Speech to the Massachusetts Bible Society (1849-05-28), quoted in Robert Winthrop, Addresses and Speeches on Various Occasions, Little, Brown & Co., 1852, p. 172)
It thus follows that the weaker the church is, the more powerful the State must become. “For the transgression of a land many are the princes thereof” (Prv. 28:2a). And if the Government itself becomes less governed by Biblical precepts and principles, calling evil good, and good evil (Is. 5:20), and contrary to it's charter, punishes those who do good and praises them that do evil (contra. 1 Pet. 2:14), then “the wicked shall do wickedly,” and persecute those who would actually preserve the State by calling it to be instructed by Christ (Ps. 2). And while in such persecution, the Christ - believing remnant “shall be purified, and made white, and tried” (Dan., 12:10), yet both willful hypocrites and the church that sought to save it's life by compromising truth and placating sin will lose what they sought to save, for some even their eternal souls (Mt. 7:21-23)!
And denying that judicious use of corporal punishment is sometimes needed and right is part of that spiritual and corporate declension.
More , by God's grace.
All scripture is inspired by God, so they are God’s words as recorded by Solomon. They would not be so preserved otherwise.
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