Replies

jeffersondem: "The old 'slavery was a Southern problem' argument."

In both 1787 and 1861 slavery was a national problem, but only Northerners were willing, ready and able to abolish it.
By 1860 all Northern states had abolished slavery, while no Southern states did.
In 1860 all Northern Republicans wanted national restrictions on slavery, while no Southern Democrats would accept such restrictions, or the "Black Republicans" party -- hence secession.

jeffersondem: "Of the original nine northern states, nine of them were slave states."

You probably don't remember, but the original 13 states were six Southern (Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia, Maryland, Delaware), six Northern (Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New Hampshire, New York, New Jersey) and one "keystone" state in the middle: Pennsylvania, home of the Declaration and Constitution.
In early 1776, when all were colonies of Great Britain, all by British law accepted slavery.

Then, as reviewed in post #61 above, by the 1787 Constitutional Convention, four of the six Northern states (Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New Hampshire) plus Pennsylvania, Vermont (#14 state), and the Northwest Territories of Ohio (#17), Indiana (#19), Illinois (#21), Michigan (#26) & Wisconsin (#30) had all begun to abolish slavery -- peacefully, lawfully, with no threats of secession.

By the Convention in 1787, many Northerners wanted to abolish slavery nationally, but most Southerners would not accept that and instead insisted the Constitution must recognize "rights" of slave holders.
Northerners accepted Southern conditions as a price of Union, a Union they considered most important.

jeffersondem: "When the King of England messed with slavery, all nine northern states voted to cite the King's interference as a cause of the revolution."

In July 1776 there were six Northern, six Southern and one "keystone" state.
Slavery was one reason among many listed in Jefferson's original Declaration draft.
That demonstrates not only Northern but also some Southern Founders in 1776 understood slavery was morally wrong.

jeffersondem: "All nine of the northern states voted to adopt a U.S. constitution that recognized and protected slavery."

In 1787 one Southern (Delaware), one Northern (New Jersey) and the Keystone state ratified the US Constitution.
In 1788 four Southern and four Northern states ratified.
In 1789 one Southern state ratified (North Carolina).
In 1790 one Northern state ratified (Rhode Island).
In 1791 -'92 one each new Southern (Kentucky) & Northern (Vermont) states ratified.

Among Northern states in 1788, only New York and New Jersey had not yet begun to abolish slavery.
Both did so by 1804.

jeffersondem: "Northern states made a ton of money off of slavery: capturing and buying slaves, transporting slaves, selling slaves, working slaves, trafficking in cotton produced with slave labor, and taxing profits made from slave produced cotton."

All of that began to be abolished in the 1794 Slave Trade Act and the 1807 Act Prohibiting Importation of Slaves.
Northern profits from Southern products (i.e., cotton) are not disputed, though these were far less important in 1788 than they were to become by 1860.
But regardless of how much they opposed slavery, all Northerners before 1860 understood that only Constitutional Amendments could abolish slavery nationwide, and Southerners were not going to support that, period.
So slavery began in 1787 and remained in 1860 a price of Union.

jeffersondem: "But - and this is the hope spot in the storyline - the north had a plan to gradually free the slaves over a period of 230 years.
Yeah, I'd say that was kind of gradual."

Beginning with Southerner Thomas Jefferson in the late 1700s, many people over the decades made proposals for gradual, national abolition.
Most included both Federally funded compensation and repatriation of freed-slaves to Africa or the Caribbean.
None of these various proposals -- not one -- was ever even considered by Southern slave holders who rejected them out of hand.

So nothing was done.

jeffersondem: "You are proud of all this?"

I am, of course, very proud of real American history, but of jeffersondem's ignorant misrepresentations of it, well, not so much.

“In both 1787 and 1861 slavery was a national problem, but only Northerners were willing, ready and able to abolish it.”

It wasn't until the first sentence of your lengthy response that you said something false.

Northerners could have refused to establish a constitution that provided for slavery in the union. But in 1787 Northerners were not willing. They were not ready. They were not able. Northerners actually did something quite different that what you suggested. They voted to embrace slavery into the U.S. constitution.

In 1861 Northerners could have introduced, and voted on, a constitutional amendment to abolish slavery - if they were willing, ready and able. History records they were not.

And all the time slavery was legal in the U.S., Northerners cheerfully made lots of money off of the practice. Perhaps every time a Northerner cashed a large slavery dividend, they said, "I accept this money under protest."