Posted on 07/08/2015 7:22:14 AM PDT by SunkenCiv
Hey, if a muzzie’s going to kill you, they’ll do it wherever you happen to be.
Quite agree — the Romans settled well east of the Rhine after defeating Arminius and then arranging his death at the hands of his own people. Not many years ago a Roman cemetery was discovered in Copenahagen, and a couple of battle sites from the 2nd or 3rd century have been found subsequent to that.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/1909864/posts
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2147810/posts
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2347873/posts
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2590052/posts
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2931755/posts
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/3019050/posts
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/3157507/posts
Finding the Ironsides: Evidence of the Roman legion military camp found in Israel
BAR | 7/09/2013 | Robin Ngo
Posted on 08/25/2013 5:26:18 PM PDT by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/3058753/posts
Yes, the 2008 discovery of a much later battlesite revolutionized our understanding of Roman activity in Germany after Teutoberger.
True.
“Other than that, what have the Romans ever done for us?”
I was there in between Intifadas! Even went into Pali territory! Bethlehem!
I’d be surprised if there were not more to find, such as day-camps. The Romans kept groups on the other side of their borders in Europe on the string as it were with gifts, and refined goods, which they traded to those deeper in the barbarian backcountry, and so on. Prior to Claudius’ conquest of Britain, the Romans maintained relations, trade, even political clients, on the island(s?). There’s an apparent Roman site n of Dublin, in Ireland, but there’s been a lot of resistance to the idea, such that it hasn’t been excavated and researched appropriately.
You can read in the biblical book of Maccabees
[1] Now it came to pass, after that Alexander the son of Philip the Macedonian, who first reigned in Greece, coming out of the land of Cethim, had overthrown Darius king of the Persians and Medes: [2] He fought many battles, and took the strong holds of all, and slew the kings of the earth: [3] And he went through even to the ends of the earth, and took the spoils of many nations: and the earth was quiet before him. [4] And he gathered a power, and a very strong army: and his heart was exalted and lifted up. [5] And he subdued countries of nations, and princes: and they became tributaries to him.
...
[21] And after Antiochus had ravaged Egypt in the hundred and forty-third year, he returned and went up against Israel. [22] And he went up to Jerusalem with a great multitude. [23] And he proudly entered into the sanctuary, and took away the golden altar, and the candlestick of light, and all the vessels thereof, and the table of proposition, and the pouring vessels, and the vials, and the little mortars of gold, and the veil, and the crowns, and the golden ornament that was before the temple: and he broke them all in pieces. [24] And he took the silver and gold, and the precious vessels: and he took the hidden treasures which he found: and when he had taken all away he departed into his own country. [25] And he made a great slaughter of men, and spoke very proudly.
...
[46] And the king sent letters by the hands of messengers to Jerusalem, and to all the cities of Juda: that they should follow the law of the nations of the earth, [47] And should forbid holocausts and sacrifices, and atonements to be made in the temple of God. [48] And should prohibit the sabbath, and the festival days, to be celebrated. [49] And he commanded the holy places to be profaned, and the holy people of Israel. [50] And he commanded altars to be built, and temples, and idols, and swine's flesh to be immolated, and unclean beasts. [51] And that they should leave their children uncircumcised, and let their souls be defiled with all uncleannesses, and abominations, to the end that they should forget the law, and should change all the justifications of God. [52] And that whosoever would not do according to the word of king Antiochus should be put to death. [53] According to all these words he wrote to his whole kingdom, and he appointed rulers over the people that should force them to do these things. [54] And they commanded the cities of Juda to sacrifice. [55] Then many of the people were gathered to them that had forsaken the law of the Lord: and they committed evils in the land:
I always thought that if there had been a second Trajan, a lot of the problems of the 2nd century would not have happened.
Trajan was one of the best show-runners Rome ever produced, and was getting set up for the final push to bring Parthia into the empire as a set of provinces. Then he up and died. I’ve viewed that with as much suspicion as the earlier sudden death of the young Alexander the Great.
One of the really inspiring “what-if” scenarios is, Trajan lives, finishes off that last serious long-term enemy of Rome and opens up the direct overland trade routes with China and India (they had sea trade, and with India and points as far east as Sumutra that was quite substantial). He had spent a lot of time and gone to some trouble to conquer Dacia, and clearly didn’t see or wasn’t intimidated by the arbitrary limits some set for expansion.
Of course, we don’t get to know the road not taken, too bad about that. :’(
If I had the cash, I’d buy into one of those archaeological tourism gigs, where people pay to participate in the generally hard labor of excavation, and would want to dig in Israel.
Parthia as a set of provinces is an interesting theme — I doubt he would have pushed further east of the Indus — too hot. But he could have pushed north and around the Caspian. If the Romans had advance warning of the moves west of the Avars and other Turkic groups, perhaps the entire Germanic migrations may never have happened
I was interested in archaeology as a child. Never pursued it. Went to work to make money instead...
If Trajan had conquered the various Parthian lands, it is very possible that the Sassanids would still have arisen and taken on Rome (weren't they just the Pars Satrapy rulers during PArthian times?)
But then, alternatively, Rome would have been able to put them down. As they did with most of their regions
It would be horrible over-extension though. how could they manage to keep communications between Cornwall and the Indus river?
> how could they manage to keep communications between Cornwall and the Indus river?
As people used to point out (before classical history fell off the curriculum, first in public school, then in colleges and universities), the US president can communicate to the other side of the world faster than Caesar could communicate across his palace. The borders of the empire were connected with the rest of the empire via the military roads system, which was a great advantage considering no one had a better one.
The main impediment for Rome was in having a non-Roman capital that produced nothing (hmm, sounds kinda familiar) trying to maintain control over rigorously Romanized provinces where most of the armies lived. The breakdown during the 3rd century led to economic activity at levels not previously seen, as there was local/regional control of things, and competing polities kept the various leaders off the backs of the populations they were trying to rule.
That century also saw a crackup of the Chinese empire, the fall of the Kushans in India, and the rise of the Sassanians. If the Sassanians really were such a threat, they had the opportunity of all opportunities to strike Rome — sounds like they had plenty to try to handle in their new conquests.
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