Posted on 01/29/2015 12:13:14 PM PST by Colofornian
There's a team in Super Bowl XLIX that, for years, has created a major competitive advantage by blatantly disregarding NFL rules.
I'm talking about the Seattle Seahawks, of course.
Focused on 24 PSIs of missing hot air and hype in New England, we've all missed an actual rules revolution going on in Seattle that, with one more win on Sunday in Arizona, could fundamentally change the NFL -- forever.
Over the past three years the Seahawks have done something no one in the white-socks-and-black-shoes, stuck-in-the-1950s NFL ever dreamed possible, or legal. Since 2012 Seattle has been at the top of the NFL in wins (tied with 36), Super Bowl appearances and ... penalties.
The best team in the league has been penalized so many times (416) in the last three seasons that I'm pretty sure the fluorescent yellow trim on the Seahawks uniforms is actually just residue from all the penalty flags. Still, Seattle's success isn't in spite of all the penalties. It's inspired by it. Without anyone really noticing, Seattle has created a blossoming dynasty in the most competitive league in the world by completely, and brilliantly, turning the stigma of penalty flags upside down; embracing infractions rather than avoiding them at all costs.
[SNIP]
Through 18 games, the Seahawks not only have been called for a league-high 144 penalties (according to NFLpenalties.com) their opponents have only been flagged just 80 times. Yes, you read that correctly. The Seahawks have been called for almost twice as many penalties as their opponents.
(Excerpt) Read more at espn.go.com ...
I don't need a generic "long list" of minutia distinctions. Of what you mentioned, only the clock stoppage has any linkage to "entertainment value."
To make your case, you need a LONG LIST -- and a significant one as to make your case that the rules are night & day different -- of rule distinctions rooted in an "entertainment" basis.
In the basic rules of the game, even high school & pro football share 75%+ of the rules. And those who have drawn up the rules and rules changes weren't primarily motivated by "entertainment" weightiness.
Look at those high school and college sports that don't draw high fan bases...same thing...if you compare their rules to high fan base sports, you don't apples and oranges -- one set of rules essentially based upon whims of the fans -- vs. those that aren't.
What you're saying is 95% nonsense.
Michael Bennet (d-line) was on the radio a few months ago and they asked him what was going to happen during the game.
“I'll be called for off-sides” he said with a laugh.
One of the radio guys laughed, and argued later that is the price they pay sometimes for anticipating the hike and getting off the mark right on time.
The other radio guy was angry, saying that if he knows it is a problem, work on it more.
I think the Seahawks have shown that it is better to play right on the edge and be aggressive and risk a miss-timed snap rather than playing it safe so they won't get the penalties. Although when it is third and two and they get called for offsides it is frustrating, or after Marshawn gets a touchdown and it is called back. Ugh!
The ones that make me mad are the 15-yard penalties of taunting or way-late hits. That is just being un-disciplined in almost all of the cases. Although the Seahawks got called on that a few weeks ago where the punt-receiver called a fair catch and Lockette just couldn't/didn't slow up in time and he barely knocked into the guy (nobody fell down, he was trying to stop). I suppose that could be marked up to “playing on the edge”.
In coaching my girl's soccer team, the ref played a part in how we played. If they called a bunch of stuff you had to play less aggressive. If they let you play, you played more aggressive. And no complaining at the ref - they were part of the game, just like the field conditions would change, etc.
Although if some player on the other team was playing too rough and illegal I would point it out quietly to the ref.
Sorry. But this is playing with nuances that just doesn't hold up.
Sando of ESPN says the Seahawks were 5th in defensive holding. "Middle of pack" is at least double digits in a 32-team league.
And to tout the Seahawks for their "roughing the passer" respect of QBs -- while the Seahawks the past 3 seasons have been calling for 35 roughing penalties of players including and beyond the QB -- frankly carries quite a bit of hubris (or ignorance) on your part.
No NFL team comes close to the roughing penalties the Seahawks have had these past 3 seasons.
(What? You haven't seen tag-team wrestling sports or roller derby thru the years?)
Yet ALL levels -- including professional sports -- have actually clamped down on enforcing this penalty.
Why?
Because it's...
...(a) unsportsmanlike behavior -- NOT a good example to influence others to be a same way;
...and (b) It easily leads to escalation of tit-for-tat taunts -- and additional unnecessary contact...
This is just one example that "deflates" your entertainment basis theory.
A big hit over the middle on a receiver has LONG rec'd "oohs" and "ahs" from the fan.
Yet NOW a defensive player is ejected in college football and penalized in NFL & college.
#1...They aren't my stats -- took directly from broadcast clip on ESPN today.
#2...Sando's "roughing" numbers covered THREE seasons...
...whereas you covered only 2014...
...and, since I mentioned the THREE-season total twice (see posts #1 & #44)...
...you REALLY don't have any excuse for not reading very carefully, do you?...
...(perhaps the mark of an overly zealous Seahawks' fan, I suppose?)...
...(& perhaps only reading what you want to read?)...
#3...Since the ESPN article by Fleming (the one I posted)...
-- BTW, NOT the broadcast segment involving Sando...
...mentions an "18-game" penalty total...
...Sando's compilation of 35 "roughing" penalties over these past three seasons may have included playoff games...
...whereas, you may have only included regular-season games from ONLY 2014...
Example: You don't have a "Roughing kicker" in your 2014 list, yet...
..."Chancellor, his presence caused Gano to shank the kick badly and Chancellor's momentum carried him into the kicker, resulting in a roughing penalty and a re-kick."
(At least that's how the Everett Herald -- a Washington state newspaper -- described it: Seahawks' Chancellor 'was all over the place'
(This was in Seattle's win vs. Carolina)
(I didn't see the play or most of the game)
Sorry but it’s not minutia. They are significantly different games with entirely their own rule books, and different tactics, and no efforts being made to “normalize” them into one game. Really thinking NCAA and NFL football are the same game is as wrong headed as thinking NFL and CFL are the same game. They quite simply are not.
They don’t need to be night and day different. They are different. That’s what matters. And yes those difference ARE rooted in entertainment because that’s the ENTIRE REASON either sport exists. But they have different athletes, with different abilities, working in different structures to entertain different audiences, which results in different rule books and them being different games.
As I pointed out, the first group that must be entertained are the players. If the players aren’t having fun then there’s no game to draw an audience. Not the whims of the fans, the goals of the people in charge. They have a way they want the game to work, which is informed by the players, coaches and fans. That is how games get rules.
Sorry but all the nonsense is coming from you. The guy who thinks every penalty is cheating is starting from a position of nonsense.
No. Taunting slows the game down and irritates a lot of the fan base. One of the big complaints you hear is about the over celebration, which is why the league keeps limiting it with rules. Very entertainment oriented rules.
Already pointed out the problem with injuries, star players on the sidelines lower the entertainment value. So again, you’re wrong, targeting is against the rules because it lowers entertainment.
I made it clear I limited my comments to this season, because the original article focused on this season’s stats because it focused on THIS YEAR’S Super Bowl teams. The “roughing the kicker” penalty the Herald incorrectly referred to was a “running into the kicker penalty,” a lesser penalty. I saw the game and it was not a vicious hit, but a slight bump caused by the defender being off-balance as he lunged to block the kick.
OKay, I'm going to reserve my right to comment further to you, but based upon your past two posts my way, you are tempting me to simply cut the convo after this post.
Why?
Because FIRST -- two posts ago -- you cited a "recount" of roughing 2014 penalties even tho I clearly mentioned in posts #1 & #44 that roughing stats referenced in this thread were three-season totals.
Now, you somehow claim that the "original article" itself "focused on THIS YEAR'S Super Bowl teams."
'Fess up, Steve_Seattle, are you reader-challenged -- or what?
Go back to said "original article" and jump down to paragraph 4...WHAT does it say?
Now onto paragraph 5, right after the above:
"The best team in the league has been penalized so many times (416)
Did you REALLY just waste minutes of my life having to capitalize, underline, italicize, and large-font obvious phrases THRICE referencing THREE seasons and "since 2012"???
I think (not a forecast, tho) we're done. Your basic "intake" level is apparently zero -- even AFTER the last post when I gave you an op to correct yourself. If you have to be thusly "hand-held" in this forum, then you need some remedial education before you bounce back in here.
Either that, or the reality may be that there are some fans so blinded by their fan identity that they eyes won't accept basic plain facts right in front of their noses.
Certainly, if you humble yourself and apologize, who would I be to ignore that, given that I've done the same thing too often to God, Himself???
OK. With this comment alone, you have zero credibility.
How many hundreds of games have we seen where the home crowd goes crazy over big hits down the middle?
(All the time!!!)
We're done.
You have convinced me -- and everybody else in this thread -- that you have NO idea what you are talking about.
Ping me all you want in any future thread; but you are earmarked as "avoid when possible." Fruitless (as in fruitcake).
You’re short sighted on your focus. Sure the crowd @ the game goes crazy, until the player doesn’t get up, now you have to stop the game for 10 minutes, everybody has that kind of queasy feeling you get in your gut as you internalize the fact that a young man was just potentially seriously injured for your entertainment, and of course if they were injured they’re going to miss however many games, which reduces the entertainment value of all those games.
It’s 5 seconds of happy followed by minutes of unhappy and possibly hours of lower quality games. Which means those targeted middle hits fall wind up in the serious negative on the entertainment value spectrum. So they’re against the rules.
Funny how you suddenly need to run to insults. Nothing like ad hominems to show you know the facts don’t support you. Sports ARE entertainment. They exist SOLELY to entertain. The rules are there to INCREASE the entertainment value. Period. And you know that, which is why you ran to insults.
(No gay slur intended; “fruitless” = fruitless, like why bother continuing to talk to someone who can’t read the basic facts of a posted article?...”it’s fruitless”...a “fruitcake” where I come from is someone a bit “nutty”...not who they sleep with...but, hey, maybe things ARE different in Seattle)
I would agree with you there. I have seen that in motor racing. A spectacular crash is eye candy. If you learn the driver or bystander died in it that queasy awful feeling hits you hard.
Reminder: The article addresses ALL three years together...But since you want to take one year out of isolation of the other two...I will as well:
In 2013/2014, the year of the Seattle Seahawks' "cheaters" SuperBowl SEASON victory...
...[NOTE: not saying the cheating resulted in the specific SuperBowl victory, but that cheating/dirty play RODE them INTO the SuperBowl]...
...the Seahawks were indeed #1 in the NFL penalties...and these types of violations were the key "cheater" types of penalties...
...defensive holds
...DPIs...
...unnecessary roughness by their defense --especially their secondary
...and holds by their offense.
2013:
* NFL Penalties - 2013 League Penalty Stats: Seattle #1 in penalties
3x over a 100 yds in penalties in games; 4 games 10 penalties; 5 times 9 penalties; 3 games 8 penalties
* 2013: Unnecessary Roughness: #2 in league
* 2013: DPI: #1 in league [Btw, not a "new" prob for Seahawks in 2013...was #4 at this in 2012]
* 2013: Defensive Holding: #1 in league [Note also not a "new" problem in 2013...Was in top 7 in 2012 & this year were in top 8 in regular season]
* 2013: Offensive holding: #2 in league
*********************************************************
So, what are we to make of the above, in light of your comments in posts?
#56: "Virtually ALL of the 34-penalty difference was comprised of procedural penalties, not dirty play...The notion that the Seahawks rode to the Super Bowl because of penalties that weren't called is ludicrous; they got to the Super Bowl DESPITE the penalties that WERE called."
#47: " Your stats are BS. here are the Seahawks 2014 stats for the following "dirty" penalties"
#43: "Nearly half - 65 of 144 penalties - were for procedural things like offside, delay of game, neutral zone infractions, false starts, etc. They were typically well-above the league average in those sorts of things. For the kinds of fouls that people might call "cheating" - holding, roughing the passer, pass interference, etc. - they were typically in the middle of the pack."
#39: " I think Seattle led the league or is among the league leaders in false starts, which involves an offensive player flinching or coming out of his stance before the snap. Those are indeed timing or mental concentration issues, as are the other types of penalties I mentioned, and they can be overcome if a team has enough talent."
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