Posted on 11/10/2014 7:37:17 AM PST by lacrew
The $2.73 million project started Oct. 2 with a site layout and installation of panel frames. Dozens of panels had been installed by Wednesday — a total of 2,629 will be installed. Each panel, made by Suniva, is 3 feet by 6 feet, said Jim Gleisberg, spokesman for the VA Eastern Kansas Health Care System.
Topeka’s project is funded by the VA Central Office and will save the VA in Topeka more than $300,000 in electrical utility costs yearly, Gleisberg said.
The solar panels will produce about 700 kilowatts per day, or roughly 8 percent of the power on the campus. The minimum campus demand is 1,000 kilowatts per day. The peak campus demand — on hot or cold days — is about 3,000 kilowatts per day.
(Excerpt) Read more at cjonline.com ...
what could go wrong?
A throw away statement in the article...they are going to build a 7 ft fence so people don’t have to look at these things.
Besides being too high for zoning as a front yard fence, them there fences cost some $$, which I’m sure isn’t included in the project costs.
The tornado in 1966 (F5) went right by this hospital. Its a concrete structure, and a co-worker even claims to have run to this building for shelter. So these panels would have been toast. Their likely demise, though - hail. We get a lot of it - hard to imagine any one spot going a decade without getting hit. I’m sure these panels can take small hail...but there has to be a breaking point.
Note: that is a 9.1 year payback. Most solar panels from the 1970s are still working. So over the life of the panels that should save them over 6 million. Calculate how many doctors that is!
Solar irradiance in areas is VERY WELL mapped out and understood using measured data from 30 plus years.
Solar panels are tested against hail. It would take historic monster hail to due damage. Any damage done should be covered under insurance just like if they have a fire at the hospital.
“But will the panels even survive 9 years...time will tell”
Did you even read that article?! Here is an excerpt. All Caps emphasis mine
•A 33W solar panel (Arco Solar 16-2000) actually outperformed it’s original factory specifications 30 YEARS after it was manufactured.[2]
•World`s first modern solar panel still works after 60 YEARS.[3]
•Kyocera has reported several solar power installations that continue to operate reliably and generate electricity even though they are nearly 30 YEARS old.[4]
You just can’t fix stupid.
Honestly, I don’t believe any of the numbers in the story. It indicates $300k is 8% of their use...meaning this hospital spends $10k per day for electricity, which is impossible. So the payback period is suspect, IMHO.
And, frankly, after reading stories on multiple solar projects, one thing is ALWAYS true - they over-project how much energy they will produce. Every single time. So again, I an suspect of the numbers.
The story always throws in a line about building a 7 ft fence - given the scale of this thing, that alone is going to cost near a million dollars....and isn’t included in the payback calculation.
Nor is the opportunity cost of the money, which is surely borrowed.
And the panels themselves may ‘last’...but they will have to be cleaned. And, these are the type that move with the sun to gain better efficiency - frankly an electric motor exposed to the elements will be lucky to survive a decade.
And we haven’t even begun to think about the equipment that stores and converts the power to ac....another item for which ten years is probably a lifetime.
The market tells me these won’t save the VA any money. If they really did save money, the private company I work for would put these up on the roof...instead we have a government agency doing it.
Yep, a Kansas hailstorm will destroy that 9-year payback figure.
“Honestly, I don’t believe any of the numbers in the story. It indicates $300k is 8% of their use”
You are correct that the 8% seems to be an error. But the same paragraph lists minimum and peak uses that appear realistic.
“And, frankly, after reading stories on multiple solar projects, one thing is ALWAYS true - they over-project how much energy they will produce.”
Predicting the output of an experimental power tower like Ivanpah of which there is no other quite like it in the world is not like predicting a standard PV installation of which 100 BILLION watts have been installed.
The project costs should include the fence. Borrowed costs of money are standard to calculate into the project.
“And, these are the type that move with the sun to gain better efficiency “
I don’t know where you get that. The picture shows fixed frame installation.
The inverters typically have a ten year warranty sometimes extendable for a small fee. The cost of an inverter replacement on an already installed system is VERY small compared to the cost of the system.
You are needlessly second guessing an industry with a hundred billion watts of installation history.
I’m not just talking about Ivanpah. I have yet to read about a large scale solar installation that produces what is predicted.
And I guarantee the cost of the fence is not included in the project. It will come ‘later’...which means its another pot of money. I am involved in construction projects and see monkey business with the funding all the time. A 7 ft fence (opaque) on a scale large enough to surround this is a large line item all by itself.
Less than 10 miles from this site, I was involved with a large industrial client that wanted to show its green credentials off, by doing a solar field just like this one. The numbers didn’t pan out, so we didn’t do it.
They’ll be cleaning up a lot of dead birds.
Since that statement was made by lacrew, the poster of the article, I guess you need to ask him if he read his own article. But honestly, no I didn’t read the article. Since he posted the article and asked the question I assumed that kind of information wasn’t in the article. Thus I googled to find out what the life span of solar panels are and that was what I had read, the link I posted.
Some back of the envelope calculations:
- This project is 2,629 panels, 3’ x 6’...so the total area is 47,322 sf.
- The amount of solar energy available is around 100 watts per square foot - or 4,732,200 watts or 4,732 kw.
- The best panels are around 20% efficient...so the panels convert 947 kw into electricity.
So lets back-calculate the $300k savings in the article (neglecting conversion losses). I know power is 12 cents per kwh here (and that’s to me as a consumer, a big user like the VA probably pays a discounted rate), so the panels must produce 2.5 million kwh to achieve that savings.
So, the panels would be producing energy for 2,639 hours each year. And this is why I don’t believe any numbers put out by solar advocates...ever. Its all exaggeration. Nobody in their right mind believes we get 2,639 hours of bright sunshine each year. Even solar advocates say its only around 5 hours per day...and only when the sun is shining. We get 150 sunny days or 750 hours available using that model.
So how did they arrive at their cost savings? Same way environmentalists always do - they assign a dollar value to ‘carbon’....and then the gate is wide open to exaggeration.
If the VA hospital really wanted to save money on energy, I could have helped them. I could have replaced their fluorescent bulbs with lower wattage bulbs that produce better light, with a return on investment of around 1.5 years. Or we could switch out the fixtures to LED and greatly increase the quality of light with a 5 year ROI. And in all likelihood, we could get an ROI less than 9 years on window coatings or new HVAC equipment or a reflective roof coating. Now every one of the items I’ve listed not only gets a return earlier, it also increases to comfort inside the hospital - something these solar panels don’t do.
Again, there is a reason private businesses do indeed replace HVAC equipment and coat their roofs bright....but don’t install solar. The market never lies.
It's even worse than that. 700 KWH per day, at the US average of a dime per KWH comes to $70 per day. That's only $26,000 per year, a tenth of the $300,000 stated. That means payback in 90 years, not nine.
None of the numbers make any sense at all...par for the course for green energy projects.
“They’ll be cleaning up a lot of dead birds.”
Seriously!? This is not a concentrator project. Power tower concentrators can kill birds due to high heat invisible in the air. This is dark flat object near the ground. They are about as likely to kill birds as pavement.
It is amazing to me how eager freepers are to attack solar and wind energy. If there is anyone I would expect to appreciate the value of energy independence, to be smart enough to recognize the benefits of distributed power over centralized power(in efficiency, warfare, disasters etc)it would be the conservative right. I might even hope that some would recognize the health benefits of reduced mercury emissions, lack of high power lines (also an emininent domain issue) etc. But alas, because some liberal might like it we must hate it. OMG!?
Everything attempted for calculations herein is based on limited information about the project. The press has such a great history of getting all the facts straight I’m sure that is the ultimate source to judge the project.
You suggest using 12cents per kwh as the cost of electricity there. That maybe what the cost on your bill says, but it is delusional to believe that is the cost to society. You think solar gets tax incentives? Consider the billions that coal gets. http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Federal_coal_subsidies
Then factor in 200,000 deaths per year from respiratory particulate deaths related, and then factor in the mercury poisoning. But hey who gives a #$%^ if we kill more people than the Vietnam war every year, we just want to complain about government and the left. SMH
I looked into solar power for my home. It was expensive, but I considered taking out a home equity loan to pay for it. It would have paid for itself in six years, I think, but then I found out that I needed all kinds of zoning variances from my township and so I never bothered.
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