Another stupid baseball rule question

Self | 4/5/'14 | Zionist Conspirator

[Zionist Conspirator]

Some of you may remember a year or two ago I posted a question about an umpire's call that made absolutely no sense whatsoever. Now I'd like to again ask my fellow FReepers to explain to me something I've seen in a baseball game that makes no sense.

Last night in the St. Louis/Pittsburgh game, bottom of the first inning: the lead-off batter, Marte, walks. Man on first. The next batter hits a broken bat liner to the shortstop who catches it and steps on second. It is called an unassisted double play.

Now, as I understand it, the moment the ball was caught the force play at second should have been killed. Marte would have had to have been tagged or the ball thrown to first base. Yet from what I saw, the shortstop merely caught the ball and then stepped on second, and the play was definitely unassisted (so he didn't throw to first). How does this get Marte out? Is there some arcane rule that says in certain situations the fly out doesn't kill the force?

Every time I think I know this game . . . !

[stylin19a]

yikes...you were an umpire and used the official baseball rules ?
and you actually got away with making that call many times and nobody filed a protest ?

Rule 7.08d

[yarddog]

This is a slightly different question but does anyone remember the College World Series around 1989 or so. Georgia Southern was playing Oklahoma State.

Well with one man on first, the batter hits a home run. That would have put Georgia Southern ahead by one and would have won the game. However the outfield ump called that it bounced into the stands and ruled it a ground rule double. Now everyone in the stadium must have known it was a homer but the call held up and Georgia Southern lost by one run.

Now don’t tell me that the home plate umpire could not have called a meeting of the umps and changed the call. I know he could have done so but he didn’t That would seem like something the NCAA could have intervened in but they didn’t.

They showed a replay several times and there was nothing to even suggest it was a bouncer. The Umpire simply was either not watching or had the Sun in his eye or was cheating. I know you can’t appeal a judgement call but the home plate umpire can at least call the umps together and get the one ump to change.
.

[Gil4]

“ONLY way that works is if the SS was able to pursue the runner back and tag him. That would make the unassisted DP with the runner being ‘doubled’ off first.”

The runner was stealing. It was a soft line drive right near the base. The runner basically gave himself up, since he and the SS arrived at 2nd base at about the same time. (Lefty batter; SS shaded toward the middle.)

I used my MLB-TV subscription to watch the replay of the game & fast-forward to that play. There’s a good screen shot just after the catch in post #23.

[FredZarguna]

In ASA rules, two separate cases: 1) He leaves before the pitch. He's out if the other team appeals that he left early, and that has nothing to do with what happens with the batter. 2) He leaves after the pitch is released, but before the fielder fields the liner. He's not out at first in this case. He's only out if he can't get back to the bag before either he, or 1st base is tagged.

Neither of these applies to what Nifster is talking about. He's simply WRONG.

[Rome2000]

-Tagged out
-Ball thrown back to first before he can return
-Tagged up from first before outfielder catches the ball, and is called out via appeal play
-Running out of the baseline to avoid the tag
-Interference

[Gil4]

I’ve seen worse. And I’ve filed protests.

[lp boonie]

Got it. I misunderstood your first post.

[Amagi]

Excellent.
My question to you is how can you access video from old games?
(Since this would not be a game highlight, as it is only a rather routine double play.)
TIA.

[HeadOn]

Yeah. I never heard anything like that. But there are always things I don’t know.

[xrmusn]

Thanks....
The ‘fact’ that the guy from 1st was on or near second was blatantly missing from the original report...

Minor detail ....ha....

How did we manage before all this technology?

I (when I imbibed) was a constant ‘arguer’ one of the reasons that I would be right more often than not so my ‘buds’ would try to ‘suck me into arguments’ but my mind though not good for a lot was great at maintaining worthless minutiae.

When I no longer drank and put a lot of ‘faith’ in my new found ‘hobby’ (Computer), rather than ‘argue’ I would just make note of the discussion, when home I would ‘look it up’, copy it and ‘prove my point the next day’.
Of course I was ‘fair’ (hate that word) and on the rare occasion I may have been wrong, I would ‘own up to it’.

[Mears]

An MLB-TV subscription would give you access to replay the games.

.

[Rome2000]

I got suckered by the Hidden Ball Trick at a tournament once, the same one Ron Fraser used in the College World series where the pitcher fakes a pickoff throw and the first baseman acts like he missed it and starts running towards the dugout.

Those SOB's put on a really good act, I told the kid to run to second and the pitcher tossed the ball to the second baseman for the tag out.

The other play in a close game that was used a lot in the late innings was the fake steal of home balk trick.

Since most kid pitchers don't have the experience to realize they have to complete the delivery to the plate or its a balk, you tell the kid on third to take an extra step and then yell GO, HES STEALING HOME at the top of your lungs .

95 out of 100 times the pitcher stops his delivery to the plate and looks at third and then you yell BALK! and the kid is awarded home plate.

They play for keeps in Miami.

[Iscool]

I gave you the answer. The rule is very specific. The ball was caught on the fly. Obviously the runner left before the ball was caught which according to THE RULE makes the runner out. It doesn’t matter that ‘no one knew’ that the ball would be caught. It was and that’s the rule. Trust this old blue. It required NO throw to first the runner was out by his actions. The play was unassisted because that is the proper way to score this play.

I'm late to the game but I'll post anyway...Back in the day, the lead off runner on 1st had to tag 1st base after the catch and then proceed to 2nd...

If the 1st base runner failed to tag 1st the shortstop would propel the ball to the 1st baseman who would then tag the base with the ball in his glove and the 1st base runner would be forced out at 1st...

[yarddog]

Until they caught on, Gil Hodges used to make his glove sound just like a ball hit it. The umps typically look at the base and listen for the sound of the ball hitting the mitt.

[Delta Dawn]

You normally see that only on a slowly hit line drive.

[SAJ]

Infield fly call requires 4 elements. 1) less than 2 out, 2) runners on 1st & 2nd OR bases loaded, 3) batted ball is hit higher than the tallest infielder (obviously judgment call), 4) batted ball is not hit further from home plate than 2 steps beyond the deepest usual fielding position of the furthest infielder.

The object of element 3) is to bar lineouts from being called an infield fly.

[FredZarguna]

Sure, me too. But he is arguing something that happens on literally every play in major league baseball with a runner on base. All he has to do is tune in to a game tomorrow and see that he’s wrong...

[FredZarguna]

I believe I said the IFR would require a force at third as a minimum. That is 100% correct. That element being missing, nothing else matters.

[Delta Dawn]

Throwing this out to the crowd...

Does a fly ball have to be ‘caught’, before the runner can advance from their current base?

[FredZarguna]

Additionally, I believe you will find element 4) is not in the official MLB rules. In fact, a comment in the official rules notes that the rule can be invoked even if an outfielder is positioned to catch the ball --IF-- in the opinion of the umpire, the fielder has a plausible double play by dropping the ball. And more to this: inasmuch as the umpire is obligated to invoke the rule as soon as possible, and will take a great deal of crap from the bench and from the league if he doesn't, he is often not in much of a position to judge that the ball will actually come down just two steps behind the furthest infielder at the point when the call is made.

The rule elements are <2 outs and a force at third. Everything else is a judgement, and may be made by any umpire on the field.