Posted on 04/05/2014 7:41:07 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator
Some of you may remember a year or two ago I posted a question about an umpire's call that made absolutely no sense whatsoever. Now I'd like to again ask my fellow FReepers to explain to me something I've seen in a baseball game that makes no sense.
Last night in the St. Louis/Pittsburgh game, bottom of the first inning: the lead-off batter, Marte, walks. Man on first. The next batter hits a broken bat liner to the shortstop who catches it and steps on second. It is called an unassisted double play.
Now, as I understand it, the moment the ball was caught the force play at second should have been killed. Marte would have had to have been tagged or the ball thrown to first base. Yet from what I saw, the shortstop merely caught the ball and then stepped on second, and the play was definitely unassisted (so he didn't throw to first). How does this get Marte out? Is there some arcane rule that says in certain situations the fly out doesn't kill the force?
Every time I think I know this game . . . !
Nope. Not even close to being true.
The play-by-play says the runner was tagged out. Evidently by the SS, since it was scored unassisted.
Apparently, the SS ran across the bag and tagged the runner out where he stood in the basepath.
Are you sure you were watching carefully. I just checked ESPN box scores for the game, went to the play by play and it listed “T Snider lined out to shortstop, S Marte tagged out at second.” It doesn’t say anything about stepping on the bag, it says Marte was tagged out.
even if he does not tag up, the runner is not automatically out... he is out if he advances to the next base without tagging up IF the fielder throws the ball to the original base, and the umpire agrees he did not tag up... and he is then called OUT!
That’s the softball rule not the baseball rule. In baseball the runner can leave before the catch and just has yo beat the ball back to the bag.
There is I believe, only one situation where the SS would not be forced to tag Marte out for the DP (other than throw back to 1st): Marte realizes that he is caught so dead-to-rights he doesn't even try to go back, and leaves the base path. In that case he would be out on appeal; the SS would not even need to throw to 1st or tag him. [Although I don't know if the SS would officially be scored as having an unassisted DP in this case -- I actually think he would.]
Runners almost never stay on the base and usually advance tentatively toward the next base when a pitch is thrown. They regularly return to their original base when a fly ball or line drive is caught.
You are wrong.
I did. Rule 7.08 Any runner is out when—...(d) He fails to retouch his base after a fair or foul ball is legally caught before he, or his base, is tagged by a fielder.
You have to either tag the runner (as happened) or tag his base, in this case first. Tagging second does nothing to the runner. All he has to do is return to first before he or first base is tagged to be safe. Runners lead off from the base to see if the ball will be caught all the time.
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2013/official_baseball_rules.pdf.
If he did , he is called out by the ump.
Marte was so close to second , probably because he was running on the pitch, that all the SS had to do was tag him instead of throwing to first.
If Marte had a normal lead he might have still got doubled off first if the SS got the ball back to 1B before the he got back, but the unwritten rule for the runner on a line drive is make sure it clears the infield before you go.
I've coached and managed for 15 years, you yell to the kids as a base coach mostly three things.
BACK!
Make sure the line drive clears the infield!
Don't run into the tag! (for the kid on second who takes off for third on a ball hit to the SS with no one on first)
= = = = = = = = = =
Starling Marte walks.
2.Travis Snider lines into an unassisted double play, shortstop Jhonny Peralta. Starling Marte doubled off 1st.
3.Andrew McCutchen pops out to second baseman Kolten Wong.
= = = = = = = =
ONLY way that works is if the SS was able to pursue the runner back and tag him. That would make the unassisted DP with the runner being 'doubled' off first.
Or even the 'unlikely' event that he BEAT the runner back to first.....THAT would be hot dogging it....
Nope. Not the rule. You can’t tag the bag ahead of the runner in that case. You must either tag the runner or the base he failed to tag-up from.
The word SO needs to be tossed in there.
Ok... But wouldn’t that mean that with no outs, two men on, both with leads, a caught line drive would retire the side?
I’ve never seen anyone with a lead be called out on a caught line drive. But you said running, didn’t you? Do you mean they have to make an obvious move to the next base?
The unofficial differences between MLB and ASA are published every year by ASA. The only thing that could even remotely apply is that ASA softball base-runners are not permitted to leave the base before a pitch, in MLB they can jump whenever a ball is live.
Exactly. So under your previous scenario how would the runner be out at first?
“The runner may NOT start running before the ball is caught and the penalty is in fact that the runner is out.”
I have read the book many times, since I have umpired and coached for over 30 years. What you are saying is absolutely wrong.
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2013/official_baseball_rules.pdf
7.08 Any runner is out when—
...
(d) He fails to retouch his base after a fair or foul ball is legally caught before he, or his base, is tagged by a fielder.
7.10 Any runner shall be called out, on appeal, when—
(a) After a fly ball is caught, he fails to retouch his original base before he or his original base is tagged
You might be picturing a play where the runner is tagging up but leaves before the ball is caught. He is not automatically out for doing this and he can think “I left too early” and try to make it back before they throw him out.
He’s completely wrong. There is no play in baseball where a runner is automatically out for taking a lead, whether he’s standing off the based poised to go, running, skipping or doing cartwheels..
Yep. See Bill Russell’s deliberate clank, (NOT called by the ump), in the ‘78 Series attempting exactly what you describe with Reggie Jax in ‘no man’s land’, (Should I stay or should I go now....), just off of first. Remember it? Lasorda went NUTZ!!!!!!!
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