Posted on 01/24/2014 6:18:44 AM PST by EAGLE7
Eric Snowden stated he is not returning to the U.S. considering the current "whistleblowing" laws.
Snowden is a traitor, on par or worse than the Walkers. Good people will die because of him. Many probably already have.
Whether phone billing records (what’s getting all the attention) are kept in big databases by telcos where they can be subpoenaed daily, or in big databases by the NSA where they just query at will, the fact is that the data exists whether or not it sits in one place or another. What matters is what’s actually -done- with the data. Good people can argue that one or the other is better or worse. There’s no evidence that there has been any actual misuse of these billing records. To me... I’m not sure what a misuse might be. Looking up the called numbers of random Americans for no reason tells them... What?
If the NSA didn’t have it, some dweeb at the phone company still does. Again... The data exists. What matters is what things are done with the data. Is that dweeb at the phone company a threat to me? Maybe? Though I’m not sure how.
I’m just a bit underwhelmed by the whole thing. Seems to me this is all exactly the sort of basic data that, if nobody WAS collecting it, we’d all be infuriated at their incompetence. At a minimum, we should expect that the NSA should be able to track back phone calls when they find a hot number in the field to see who they’ve been talking to. Should they not? Really?
You really don’t understand the issues, do you.
Put this way, The Government and Google knows more about you than your spouse or family and friends.
Knowledge is power. They aren’t going to use that power for your benefit.
Government and Google know about us what we let them know. My barber knows stuff about me too. Amazon knows what sort of books you like but only your car detailer knows where you put your boogers. My friends know stuff I’ve told them when I was drunk that I don’t even remember. Yep... There’s all sorts of folks that know stuff about us. Am I worried about all this? Not really. The information exists. That’s neither good or bad. It’s just a fact. What matters is what they DO with the information.
Using Metadata to Find Paul Revere
Whether phone billing records (what’s getting all the attention) are kept in big databases by telcos where they can be subpoenaed daily, or in big databases by the NSA where they just query at will, the fact is that the data exists whether or not it sits in one place or another. What matters is what’s actually -done- with the data.
No; how the data is obtained is important — otherwise there would be no need for the 4th amendment.
If the ends do not justify the means, so that the end hasn't [yet] been catastrophic cannot be used to validate the means; if the ends do justify the means, then why do we hold public/open criminal jury trials?
Eric will be a Man Without A Country for a long time. Meanwhile, he could and likely will use his notoriety to make money. Assange will be wanting to join forces. They could conduct online seminars and raves. I think Snowden has endangered many of our allies or links to allied forces. At the same time, it’s benefical to know how much money is being wasted on redundant spy works.
snowden is not a traitor, He exposed treasonous element within the goverment,
and if you worry about Muslim terrorists like me there is a far better solution already out there then destroying the 4th amendment but its not very pc.
Lt. Col. Matthew A. Dooley suggested a policy of total war on islam , that is the total erdiaction of Islam by all means
“[Islam] will no longer be tolerated. Islam must change or we will facilitate its self-destruction. [That opens the possibility of applying] “the historical precedents of Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki” to Islam’s holiest cities, and bringing about “Mecca and Medina[’s] destruction.”
Put this way, The Government and Google knows more about you than your spouse or family and friends.
They only know as far as where you choose to browse the web, or even more forwardly, what you post on facebook of yourself. But then again, the internet is like your backyard: unless you have some towering wall around your yard, what you do outdoors in your yard is fair game for the neighbors to see.
Regarding going through data, this isn’t random, it’s overwhelmingly a keyword search in databases for people, places, and objects. No sane person would be interested in having to try and look for something in an investigation randomly browsing through the trillions of pages that exist on the web, or in databases, even for some of the world’s biggest geniuses who work for the government, such mental processing is highly impractical, shoot for the keywords, or the fingerprint matches, or who was at a specific proximity to a crime scene location.
The big illusion here is that the government is somehow exaggeratedly powerful with this system, however inadvertently, Edward Snowden, al qaeda, Taliban, etc, prove that even technology isn’t neccessarily a trump card, in fact, even the most advanced computer is limited by the mental capacity of the person operating it, and even then, the system is only really designed to specialize in a given realm.
NORAD was totally unequipped to deal with hijacked suicide airliners, even the most advanced air defense platform was reduced to finding flying needles in a haystack. Snowden and the other leakers demonstrated how incompetent and unprepared the NSA is in knowing who is loyal to them, despite acting tough and trying to look nice by talking smack about those who disagree with them, well, now you have a 30 year old who pranced away to Russia with your classified information, and now you pretty much can’t do anything about it.
My primary beef about security is that the way that the U.S. does it, is extremely wasteful, both in time as well as in money.
Information is totally used for your benefit: it’s used to prosecute criminals, who seldom, if ever, walk around with T-Shirts saying “ I am a serial killer” or shout out loud proudly on main street, I am going to go shoot some people tommorrow”. It doesn’t work like that, but collected evidence and careful database searches of information is workable.
“Knowledge is power. They aren’t going to use that power for your benefit.”
And yet information is used for the benefit of society all the time, criminal investigations, use databased information to narrow down suspects. The military always has spied and assasinated people, even during the American Revolution, where we took out British COmmanding Officers fairly frequently in battle. You are being quite narrowly selective in who you think spies on you. Government isn’t the only ones, plenty of your nongovernment Joes and Janes have had a fun time with hacking into a person’s laptop and/or webcam and eliciting information from him/her. Foreign governments wouldn’t think twice about probing information about people to get around and target. I don’t know, but there sure is a whole lot more outside of your circle of reasoning that you leave out here. A whole lot more. Spying is neccessary in going after criminals for no better reason than you can’t take most of them for their word anyways.
The real problem with Snowden is that he made America look weak before our enemies. That is betrayal.
People will die should some kind of weakness or future traitor do worse, and given the fan club that exists for the fantasy.
Snowden, however, is not the sole problem, it could potentially also be those who hired him as well. It worries me that not much vetting was neccessarily done on the backgrounds of plenty of people who work for the government, how did Snowden get entrusted as a contractor to so many files and documents? How did Manning? It does give a bad appearance that our government stinks to high heaven of incompetency.
The 4th Amendment has to do with forcibly confiscating property, or forcibly searching something within someone’s residence. It has not adequately addressed information that people put out in fairly open sight of others.
I very much disagree with much of what you wrote.
The massive data mining operation against the American people is a major violation of the 4th Amendment, in fact it effectively repeals it. Who is going to protect your rights, a secret court, accountable to who?
The Government isn’t all powerful, yet. But technology is moving on very fast. Anything you have ever posted on the internet is forever. Along with your travel history (gps, smartphones).
Are you OK with Government and Business spying on you in your home via the microphone and camera’s in you smart phones, tv’s etc. How much loss of privacy is enough for you? Any limits?
“Information is totally used for your benefit”
No not always. Tell that to young people who have lost out on a job because of something stupid they have posted on Facebook.
What do you think a Hitler would have done with all this technology? Very very few of his enemies would have escaped.
Privacy is the Major Civil right of our time. Freedom will not survive the loss of privacy. (And privacy is almost gone now).
Your conclusion is completely illogical who do you know who mysteriously disappeared from your home in the past few months. If not, then you’re allowing yourself to partake of paranoia from a big internet echo chamber, which in and of itself raises questions as to how really totalitarian the government is. If they really are so powerful and competent, then why the heck are they allowing for people to speak paranoid drivel about them in echo chambers? Really, why? It kind of reminds me of Bobby Fischer rambling on about the conspiracy against him that never happened, and the man died for no other reason than his own health.
“Are you OK with Government and Business spying on you in your home via the microphone and camera’s in you smart phones, tv’s etc. How much loss of privacy is enough for you? Any limits?”
Total straw and B.S. Private citizens do it all the time as well. Personally, as I said before, put something out on facebook, and it’s fair game. Government hasn’t pestered me asking for information, private citizens and corporations have though, so once again, you are demonstrating selective outrage. I can just as easily spy on you, as a private citizen, if I really wanted to.
“No not always. Tell that to young people who have lost out on a job because of something stupid they have posted on Facebook.”
Posting on facebook is equivalent to speaking in the public square or doing something in your backyard, people can readily see and hear you in that case, without having to hack, so it’s therefore fair game. There is ABSOLUTELY NO OBLIGATION to be on FACEBOOK, in fact, google terminating your facebook account if you want to.
“What do you think a Hitler would have done with all this technology? Very very few of his enemies would have escaped.”
Again, total bulls#$% to the conversation, what if isn’t the issue here. Hitler is long since dead. What you are doing here is trying to do an appeal to emotion fallacy. Don’t waste time with hypotheticals, either.
Again, what bothers you about the fact that what you write on a wall is fair game against you? If you are so concerned about the facebook postings, well, only do it when you are sober or in a good mood.
Your throwing insults because quite frankly you don’t have an answer for what I posted.
I don’t post on face book because I value my privacy. My kids and family also don’t use it. The only social media that I use is Linkedin and that is for professional reasons.
If you think another Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Castro, etc is impossible or not possible in this country, well you don’t know very much history.
Many people value their privacy and will fight for it.
Have a great day.
And you, Crusher, cry wolf when it’s not happening. Alexander Litvinenko, and his friend Anna, were murdered for simply implying that Vladmir Putin was a not so nice guy. As for Snowden, Bobby Fischer, etc. they rant all day long about how evil America is, but live quite well. I answered everything you said. But in your little conspiracy box, you never accept an answer that doesn’t go lockstep with your need for an echo chamber. Good night.
Old story but I think it’s of interest again...
http://www.villagevoice.com/2005-04-26/news/in-the-name-of-sibel-edmonds/
Old thread at FR about all of this...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1950281/posts
Recent story of interest:
http://jewishvoiceny.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6466:us-contractor-arrested-accused-of-smuggling-fighter-jet-plans-to-iran&catid=118:war-on-terror&Itemid=301
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