Posted on 12/13/2013 1:00:32 PM PST by Kevmo
Hold on. This is the first I've heard of this. Is there any documentation on this? Wouldn't the generation and detection of gamma rays prove that there was some sort of nuclear process going on?
I remember first reading about this and from memory, Rossi stopped Celani from trying to use his gamma ray detector because he thought it would reveal the secret catalyst. Now it's reported that he detected gamma rays; isn't that kind of a big deal and wouldn't it also have been dangerous to people in the lab?
Has anyone else detected gamma rays during a Rossi demonstration and if so, isn't it in Rossi's favor to report this?
What about during the test of the BBB where they ran it at half power?
Now, the only thing I know about gamma rays is from my Google-fu but they are the result of a nuclear reaction.
Wiki has an article on them: Wiki, Gamma rays
Is there anyone who knows about them and can they clarify what this would mean if the report is true? Annnnnd, can anyone confirm that Celani detected them?
No better way for you to demonstrate to everyone that your a PTSIFOM skeptopath. Thanks for bumping the thread T4BTT
Wouldn’t the generation and detection of gamma rays prove that there was some sort of nuclear process going on?
***Absolutely. That’s why this open-source pure science project result is so important. Anyone with the means (perhaps a few hundred $thousand) can follow this recipe and generate the same result. Biberian did it in one day.
Hold on. This is the first I’ve heard of this. Is there any documentation on this?
***No, because Celani was asked to stop measuring. You can’t really generate a scientific article on one measurement which was cut short. Your point is a bit confusing — you say it’s the first time you’ve heard of this, but then you say “I remember first reading about this and from memory, Rossi stopped Celani from trying to use his gamma ray detector”...
because he thought it would reveal the secret catalyst.
***I’ve seen the same things mentioned in LENR articles. Basically, I doubt it would reveal the catalyst but what it will do is give a view to what reactions are taking place. Rossi has the lead in this area, because he has more time on point with LENR devices than anyone else at this point.
Now it’s reported that he detected gamma rays; isn’t that kind of a big deal and wouldn’t it also have been dangerous to people in the lab?
***Yes. But it is only during startup and Rossi’s devices are shielded.
Has anyone else detected gamma rays during a Rossi demonstration and if so, isn’t it in Rossi’s favor to report this?
***Not as far as I know. It is definitely NOT in Rossi’s favor to allow it to happen, if it gives his competitors a leg up. Rossi is not a scientist, he is an engineer looking to do industrial level profiteering.
What about during the test of the BBB where they ran it at half power?
***Haven’t heard anything about it.
Now, the only thing I know about gamma rays is from my Google-fu but they are the result of a nuclear reaction.
***Absolutely. There’s no way you put in Nickel powder and Hydrogen, mix them up and get gamma rays out without something nuke goin’ on. Very simple.
Is there anyone who knows about them and can they clarify what this would mean if the report is true?
***On a previous thread, there was a freeper who seemed to know what was going on. But I can’t find him.
Annnnnd, can anyone confirm that Celani detected them?
***The problem here is that Celani saw what he saw. Then he was asked to shut it down. Either you believe him or you don’t. That’s why the MFMP open source project is so important because soon enough, anyone with the means will be able to detect gamma rays. Biberian did it in ONE day.
You’re just pimping some article you wrote, posted on another site. It’s no different than blog pimping.
No, the articles were originally generated on Free Republic. You’d know that if you read them. I predicted you wouldn’t read them. I knew because you have outed yourself as a skeptopath.
If they’re from FR, use FR links.
I have my reasons. You just demonstrated one. T4BTT
This is the first I've heard that gamma rays were detected. I'd read that Celani had a detector and Rossi made him shut it down but I'd never heard or read that he actually detected gamma rays.
I would think that's a point in Rossi's favor even though I still don't trust him.
As for P&F, I thought people that tried to replicate their experiment had tried to scale it up and failed instead of taking their exact instructions, verifying it worked and then going bigger.
It would be awesome if something happens in 2014.
Another thing I don't understand, the hot fusion reactors cost many millions but they are only to test the theory? Shouldn't they be designed to go on line after they verify the theory; what is the purpose of the reactor after proving it works? I understand that they need to test the design but they should be able to be turned into an actual power generating reactor after proving that their theory is correct.
China has attained 30 seconds of confinement? It's about time but China?
As for P&F, I thought people that tried to replicate their experiment had tried to scale it up and failed instead of taking their exact instructions, verifying it worked and then going bigger.
*** Focardi, Piantelli, Violante, Takahashi, Matsumoto, Bush and Eagleton have all seen emissions of some type from experiments.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/3091404/posts
Another thing I don’t understand, the hot fusion reactors cost many millions but they are only to test the theory?
***I suppose that’s an accurate assessment.
Shouldn’t they be designed to go on line after they verify the theory; what is the purpose of the reactor after proving it works?
***They are far from that point. Basically, all the confinement attempts for hot fusion have failed.
I understand that they need to test the design but they should be able to be turned into an actual power generating reactor after proving that their theory is correct.
***Each approach seems to have its own gremlins that push it off the rails. Since they can’t get it to work, they aren’t able to generate “actual power”.
this is apparently Celani’s report
http://newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2011/36/3623rf-celani.shtml
23. Rossi and Focardi LENR Device: Celani Report
(This article was originally published on the New Energy Times blog on Jan. 18)
By Francesco Celani
[New Energy Times received the following first-person report from Francesco Celani, a physicist with the Instituto Nazionale di Fisica Nucleare, INFN (National Institute of Nuclear Physics). His report has been edited for clarity.]
On Jan. 14, I attended the demonstration of Andrea Rossi and Sergio Focardi’s experiment.
It took place in an industrial building, 10 kilometers from the city of Bologna.
Only people who received a personal invitation were able to attend it. Several security people were stationed around the hall and outside the building. About 40-50 people attended.
Several people were from the physics department of the University of Bologna, including the director. The director of the Bologna section of the National Institute of Nuclear Physics also attended, in a semi-official capacity.
The experiment started at about 15:30 and ended at about 16:45.
The measurement of energy emission was based on a modified flow calorimeter method (peristaltic pump, small size, about 10-20W of power). They warmed up the water to 102°C, pressurized vapor condition. I estimate that the experiment consumed 12-14 liters of water.
A researcher and technicians from the University of Bologna made all the measurements independently. Rossi only supervised key safety aspects.
The amount of the reactant wasn’t clear, but it could be a few grams. According to Rossi, it is a complex mixture of nickel and one or two secret additives, which are the key for the energy emission. All the material is in the state of nano-particles or colloid.
In the pressurized (about 2 atm) chamber, the volume is 1-2 liters; also inside are the cooling pipe and the reactants. Hydrogen gas was added continuously, at a low flow rate.
According to the authors, the trigger is only heat (at quite high temperatures: T>T_Curie of Nickel???). Other people speculated about ultrasound. The input power was 500-700W maximum.
My approximate calculation, assuming no thermal dissipation from the reactor, gives:
- Input Energy (3600s): (500—700 W)*3600=(1.8—2.52)MJ
- Output Energy to increase the water temperature of 90°C: 4.2* (102°C-12°C)=378 J/g
- Vaporization enthalpy, about 40.6kJ/mole water= 2633J/g
- Total energy (with 13 liter of water vaporized)= 378+2633=3011J/g of water=>39.14MJ
The energy gain is a factor of 15-20, which is really large!
They also had a twin gamma ray detector assembled in order to detect e+e- annihilation. In this run, almost no such results were detected.
Focardi was confident that they were going to get large amounts of such signal, as in previous experiments. This time, the counts were close to background for coincidences, and only some uncorrelated signal was over background.
I brought my own gamma detector, a battery-operated 1.25” NaI(Tl) with an energy range=25keV-2000keV. I measured some increase of counts near the reactor (about 50-100%) during operation, in an erratic (unstable) way, with respect to background.
I decided to change the gamma detector from “counts” to “spectra” mode. After a few minutes, Rossi realized that I was trying to identify something secret inside the reactor. I was forced to stop the measurements.
The discussion, mostly scientific and even a heated debated about the details, lasted up to 18:45. Some Italian newspaper made an on-line report of the whole experiment (over 3h). The government television report still isn’t available.
And more...
http://www.quantumheat.org/index.php/en/follow/follow-2/347-gamma
On January the 14th 2011, Rossi and Focardi gave the first public demonstration of the low temperature E-Cat to a personally invited group. A short time afterwards, Francesco Celani, who was present at the demonstration, sent a review for the event to New Energy Times.
Francesco Celani record of first public E-Cat demonstration in New Energy Times
In this article, it is noted that Rossi and Focardi had a twin gamma ray detector set up in order to detect e+e- annihilation that was expected by Focardi based on previous experiments. The results from that set up were not meaningful during the guests time in the room.
Bob Greenyer was keen to understand more about this event, so in the day following ICCF-18, he quizzed Francesco on the matter. Here is a fresh account of that event.
Francesco was sitting down with other scientists and guests waiting to be called in for the demonstration, they were 7 – 8m away from E-Cat which was behind a door in another room.
Francesco had 2 gamma detectors with him, 1 very cheap and 1 very expensive battery operated 1.25” NaI(TI) detection range of 25keV to 2000 keV.
He notes that the background in Frascatti is normally around 120 because of local geology, but in Bologna it is 60, Francesco Celani set the detectors accordingly and the assembled group sat there patiently waiting.
Suddenly and for about 1 second, both detectors topped out 1000+ counts PER SECOND and sounded their alarms (they could not show any more). Several of the invited observers considered literally running from the building as it was speculated that Rossi might be leveraging a radioactive source in his experiment. Why such concern? Well, radiation falls off according to Newtons 1/d^2 law as you can see here.
Plugging the minimum 1000 counts per second and 8 meters into the formula would mean that 50cm from the E-Cat, the counts would be over a quarter million per second - not good!
However, luckily the momentary signal collapsed and about two minutes later, Rossi came into the waiting room to invite people in to see the E-cat saying “the reaction has started”.
Francesco and the rest of the invited guests then went into the room where the E-Cat was. Whilst in that room and using the NaI(TI) near the operating reactor, there was a 50-100% count increase over background which was erratic. Francesco decided to try and get a spectra from the detector, in order to understand what might be going on and so he switched mode on the detector. Rossi however saw what he was doing, got upset and Celani was told to stop the measurements, which he did.
In addition, Celani said that he noted a number of gas cylinders in the room – but that it would only be speculation to say what they were. If E-Cats do indeed produce high gamma busts prepping for ‘switch on’ or elevated emissions during operation, that might explain challenges in getting domestic certification and the determination to keep below a fixed cop and using staged cascades of small to big E-Cats to create larger effective COPs.
Whatever happened that day, Francesco Celani started investigating surface modified transition metals with hydrogen the following month.
Inverse Square Law
To help understand the inverse square law we made this little video.
Comparing the 1100 counts per minute at 2 cm from source in that video to being 8m away, gives around 0.007 counts per minute - i.e. not meaningful contribution to the 25 or so background. Hopefully this gives a sense of why there was such excitement at the momentary signal in January 14, 2011.
Celani
After the end of ICCF-18 conference dinner, Bob found himself in a conversation opposite Francesco Celani and a prominent government funded scientist. Celani was told essentially that the levels of excess reported were basically not significant enough to avoid being dismissed and that what was needed as solid evidence of LENR was either transmutation or particle/ray emission.
Francesco then said, that when he was testing his wire with Deuterium, he got gamma emissions, the scientist asked if it was explored but Celani said no because he was looking for excess heat and actually, that experiment just produced a clear negative result.
Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project (MFMP)
For the MFMP, this year has largely been about differential experiments, first the Steel and Glass, then the US dual cells and more recently, the calibrated dual Celani cells in France. In this latter experiment, the first of the active wires completed loading and moved into apparent excess heat after around six days and stayed firmly positive in favour of the active cell for more than 30 days.
I haven’t been on top of fusion since maybe the late eighties since it never seemed to happen but was right around the corner but I do remember them talking about the “National Ignition Facility’ is that it’s name, recently?
It and others that use tokomaks or laser containment are enormous machines taking up almost as much room as a fission reactor like Three Mile Island. Shouldn’t they start a little smaller and get it working, why the big machine and expense? What happens to the machine once it has proved or disproved their approach?
It is seriously lame that China is up to 30 seconds when scientists in the USA are looking at 2 seconds to declare a success.
My point is, if you’re building this enormous machine, design it so that it can go online if successful. If that is not possible, get it working on a tabletop before spending my money on this and I do understand that there are enormous rewards to whoever gets either LENR or Fusion working. But I’ve been reading about this since I was a little kid reading Popular Science and it was always around the bend, the same thing they were saying about the Space Shuttle but they got that working.
Boy, when it comes to 'asked & answered' you nailed it there. That's been the M.O. over 14,000 times for sure by now....
It and others that use tokomaks or laser containment are enormous machines taking up almost as much room as a fission reactor like Three Mile Island. Shouldn’t they start a little smaller and get it working, why the big machine and expense?
***All those huge machines & buildings are necessary. They can’t do it any smaller than they already are attempting. That’s part of the problem. Not just the expense, but also once hot fusion supposedly succeeds, it will never scale down to anything like a car powerplant. LENR already has that part of the equation beat. If anything, there are problems with scaling up rather than scaling down.
You are batting a thousand. Every single time you have logged onto a LENR thread, you have contributed exactly nothing to the furtherance of science.
asked & answered
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