“They were created after their kind and they procreate after their kind. That’s what makes a kind a kind—procreation is constrained within the kind. Your wild speculation is unfounded.”
What wild speculation? The text says nothing about procreation being constrained, does it? Surely you can provide a citation for that, if it isn’t just your own “wild speculation”.
Also, while you are at it, see if you can find a verse mentioning these kinds and constraints in relation to men, or angels, since they are the ones seemingly involved in the potential union. Whatever animals or plants may be constrained to do doesn’t have a direct bearing on the question.
“You’ve been indulging in too much science fiction.”
If you automatically deem a non-physical, non-carnal act of reproduction “science fiction”, then I’m afraid you’ll have some issues with a major plot point in the New Testament.
“You suggest that angels who are cast out of heaven can break, as it were , their vow of chastity and start procreating.”
I suggest we don’t know whether or not, from the text, whether this is a prohibition intrinsic to their nature, or a command. If it’s intrinsic, then you could argue that there is no way they could. If it’s a commandment, then obviously disobedient angels might be able to disobey it.
“First, all angels and Satan are still in heaven. They have not been cast out heaven yet. That doesn’t happen until Revelation 12:9 which coincides with the start of the persecution (tribulation) of the saints.”
That’s one possible interpretation of things, but as it is a prophetic text, it can represent a future event, recount a past event, or even represent a long compound narrative stretching from the past to the future. There are all types of those prophecies in the Bible.
To me, it seems the final expulsion of Satan in that prophecy corresponds to the events of Revelation 9, with Satan as the star that falls from heaven with the key to the bottomless pit. If that is the case, it pinpoints his descent to Earth in the larger timeline of the tribulation, but it also reveals there are some demons or spirits who seem to have previously fallen from grace before Satan’s final rebellion. After all, they are already imprisoned in the bottomless pit when Satan arrives to free them.
Also, note that in Revelation 12:4, it says Satan drew down 1/3 of the stars, or angels from heaven, prior to the birth of Christ. The prophecy seems to describe two separate events, an initial rebellion, or fall of Satan and one third of the angels, and a subsequent war in heaven, at the end of which Satan and the angels are permanently banished to Earth. There are certainly plenty of other passages in the Bible supporting the fact that Satan and demons are free to walk the Earth at this time, and no solid indication that this wasn’t already the case in the time of Genesis.
“The passage from Matthew 22:24-30 is specifically talking about “raising up seed” and states that angels do not raise up seed.”
No, that is incorrect. The passage speaks of raising seed, because it was part of the Old Testament law that is being referenced by the Sadducees. It was the duty of brothers to marry such widows in order to give them children, and the Sadducees used that peculiar scenario, taken to the point of absurdity with seven brothers, to try and “stump” Jesus about the law and resurrection.
The key question is who the wife will “belong” to in heaven, since she had married all seven brothers, according to God’s law. Jesus cut the Gordian knot by revealing that, just like the angels in heaven, we will not marry. He never states that angels do not “raise seed”, or that they do “raise seed” for that matter.
“The Sons of God mated with the daughters of men and produced “mighty men of old, men of renown.” It doesn’t say they were giants.”
It calls them “nephilim” in the Hebrew. This is the same term used to describe the giant inhabitants of Canaan by the scouts in Numbers 13:33. It’s also used in that manner in quite a few apocryphal works, such as Enoch and Jubilees, which specifically tell of angels creating giants. The interpretation of nephilim as meaning giant, and the Sons of God being angels is the ancient, traditional interpretation of these verses, and not some innovation or personal speculation.
“And if it had, it simply means they were very large men, not some new creature, for creation has ceased. God rested after day 6.”
Well, yes, giants are very large men, but according to the Bible, at least when we read the descriptions of the post-flood giants, they are larger than any we see produced through normal human reproduction. As for it being a new creature or not, it seems a moot point, since they are in the Bible, described as existing, one way or another. You can’t wish them away by inventing rules precluding their existence.
It doesn't say that it doesn't. (Two can play this game.)
If you automatically deem a non-physical, non-carnal act of reproduction “science fiction”, then I’m afraid you’ll have some issues with a major plot point in the New Testament.
John 1: 11, 12: He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of men, but of God. This "plot point" as you call it, is being born of the Spirit, born again.
To me, it seems the final expulsion of Satan in that prophecy corresponds to the events of Revelation 9, with Satan as the star that falls from heaven with the key to the bottomless pit. If that is the case, it pinpoints his descent to Earth in the larger timeline of the tTo me, it seems the final expulsion of Satan in that prophecy corresponds to the events of Revelation 9, with Satan as the star that falls from heaven with the key to the bottomless pit. If that is the case, it pinpoints his descent to Earth in the larger timeline of the tribulation, but it also reveals there are some demons or spirits who seem to have previously fallen from grace before Satan’s final rebellion. After all, they are already imprisoned in the bottomless pit when Satan arrives to free them.ribulation, but it also reveals there are some demons or spirits who seem to have previously fallen from grace before Satan’s final rebellion. After all, they are already imprisoned in the bottomless pit when Satan arrives to free them.
The angel of the bottomless pit is NOT Satan. He is Apollyon (Abaddon) (see both Revelation 9:11 AND Revelation 20:1) He has the keys to the bottomless pits and he binds and cast Satan into the pit. Satan does not bind Satan (himself).
The creatures from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9) are doing God's will. They are his agents, not Satan's.
(I wrote) “The passage from Matthew 22:24-30 is specifically talking about “raising up seed” and states that angels do not raise up seed.” (You wrote) No, that is incorrect.
I quoted the precise language from Matthew 22. "Raise up" means both to plant and tend seed.
As for it being a new creature or not, it seems a moot point, since they are in the Bible, described as existing, one way or another. You can’t wish them away by inventing rules precluding their existence.
Hardly moot. God rested from his creation on the seventh day. He has created no new kinds since the beginning. Kinds procreate within kinds.