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To: Boogieman
“They were created after their kind and they procreate after their kind. That’s what makes a kind a kind—procreation is constrained within the kind. Your wild speculation is unfounded.” What wild speculation? The text says nothing about procreation being constrained, does it? Surely you can provide a citation for that, if it isn’t just your own “wild speculation”.

It doesn't say that it doesn't. (Two can play this game.)

If you automatically deem a non-physical, non-carnal act of reproduction “science fiction”, then I’m afraid you’ll have some issues with a major plot point in the New Testament.

John 1: 11, 12: He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of men, but of God. This "plot point" as you call it, is being born of the Spirit, born again.

To me, it seems the final expulsion of Satan in that prophecy corresponds to the events of Revelation 9, with Satan as the star that falls from heaven with the key to the bottomless pit. If that is the case, it pinpoints his descent to Earth in the larger timeline of the tTo me, it seems the final expulsion of Satan in that prophecy corresponds to the events of Revelation 9, with Satan as the star that falls from heaven with the key to the bottomless pit. If that is the case, it pinpoints his descent to Earth in the larger timeline of the tribulation, but it also reveals there are some demons or spirits who seem to have previously fallen from grace before Satan’s final rebellion. After all, they are already imprisoned in the bottomless pit when Satan arrives to free them.ribulation, but it also reveals there are some demons or spirits who seem to have previously fallen from grace before Satan’s final rebellion. After all, they are already imprisoned in the bottomless pit when Satan arrives to free them.

The angel of the bottomless pit is NOT Satan. He is Apollyon (Abaddon) (see both Revelation 9:11 AND Revelation 20:1) He has the keys to the bottomless pits and he binds and cast Satan into the pit. Satan does not bind Satan (himself).

The creatures from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9) are doing God's will. They are his agents, not Satan's.

(I wrote) “The passage from Matthew 22:24-30 is specifically talking about “raising up seed” and states that angels do not raise up seed.” (You wrote) No, that is incorrect.

I quoted the precise language from Matthew 22. "Raise up" means both to plant and tend seed.

As for it being a new creature or not, it seems a moot point, since they are in the Bible, described as existing, one way or another. You can’t wish them away by inventing rules precluding their existence.

Hardly moot. God rested from his creation on the seventh day. He has created no new kinds since the beginning. Kinds procreate within kinds.

118 posted on 12/07/2013 7:22:34 AM PST by nonsporting
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To: nonsporting

“It doesn’t say that it doesn’t. (Two can play this game.)”

There’s no game. If you make a claim, the onus is yours to provide a citation.

“Not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of men, but of God. This “plot point” as you call it, is being born of the Spirit, born again.”

That wasn’t what I was referring to. I meant that the incarnation of Christ was a non-physical act of reproduction by a spiritual being. Thus, if you are too quick to rule out that kind of thing, you may throw the baby Jesus out with the bathwater.

“The angel of the bottomless pit is NOT Satan. He is Apollyon (Abaddon) (see both Revelation 9:11 AND Revelation 20:1)”

Beings can be referred to by more than one name, especially in the context of prophecy. The verses are clearly parallel, as both the dragon and Abaddon are cast down to Earth and then lead the war on the saints. However, the angel in verse 20 who binds Satan clearly is not Apollyon, because he is a servant of God, whereas Apollyon is fallen.

“The creatures from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9) are doing God’s will. They are his agents, not Satan’s.”

God places a restriction on them, but that doesn’t mean they are doing God’s will. Satan has restrictions placed on him by God. Is he doing God’s will?

“I quoted the precise language from Matthew 22. “Raise up” means both to plant and tend seed.”

Yes, and your quote says absolutely nothing about the angels raising up seed. The only words about raising up seed in those verses refer to living humans, not angels.

“Hardly moot. God rested from his creation on the seventh day. He has created no new kinds since the beginning. Kinds procreate within kinds.”

Well, according to you, but you refuse to provide a reference for that from the Bible, so we can dismiss it as speculation, no?


125 posted on 12/09/2013 6:50:27 AM PST by Boogieman
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