Posted on 05/05/2013 12:07:12 PM PDT by Borges
The Minnesota Orchestra, whose musicians have been locked out since the beginning of the season, is veering toward catastrophe. A number of players have departed for other ensembles; the orchestra's use of state funds has raised serious questions and is under review; powerful board members have created a fearful atmosphere; and, as Graydon Royce reports, Osmo Vänskä, Minnesota's brilliant music director, is threatening to resign if the situation is not resolved soon. In his latest piece, Royce alludes to a column I wrote in 2010, in which I said, "For the duration of the evening of March 1st, the Minnesota Orchestra sounded, to my ears, like the greatest orchestra in the world." The idea was not to issue a hard-and-fast superlative but to undercut the entire business of ranking orchestras. Still, I stand by the statement, at least as far as the musicians themselves are concerned. As for the board and the management, I am tempted to apply a superlative of a quite different kind. I'll simply say this: do the board and management actually wish to destroy the Minnesota Orchestra? So far, their actions seem to be moving steadily toward that end.
Now, now... you are talking about our token national pornographer!
“I agree that tax payers shouldn’t bear the burden of city orchestras”
Good. We agree on something. Well maybe, let’s see.
“disagree that classical entertainment is expensive when comparing entertainment venues... ever try getting a ticket to see beyonce or gaga? what about NFL tickets, those cost more than a trip to the symphony.”
My point about the high cost of going to a live classical music venue is not the cost alone but the fact that not one I know of runs without public taxpayers’ assistance. I can’t stand lady Gaga, but she’s not asking for a taxpayer handout.
“musicians get paid squat”
Not true.
[From related article] “Musician costs account for 48 percent of the Orchestra’s total costs. In 2011, Minnesota Orchestra musicians received an average annual salary of $135,000, plus $35,000 worth of benefits including a defined benefit pension plan and comprehensive medical plan. They receive a minimum of 10 weeks paid vacation each year and up to 26 weeks of paid sick leave per year.”
That’s not “squat”.
When they get paid the median wage of the taxpayers who are subsidizing their jobs, then you might get to say they earn “squat”.
“but lets not call them all a bunch of elitist over priced snobs who have nothing meaningful to contribute, unless of course your prefer the musical prowess of say eminem.”
Let’s be clear: I, personally love classical music, including opera. And, let’s be additionally clear, I too think classical music forms continue to make meaningful contribution to music and western culture. HOWEVER other forms of music are also making meaningful contributions to western music and culture; BUT, unlike the elite snobs involved in producing live classical music, and the elite snobs who think we should be subsidizing it, most other forms of western music ARE NOT asking that their businesses and jobs be subsidized by the taxpayers. And yes it does take a “superior than thou” attitude to be among those who think THEY DESERVE to be subsidized by our taxes. They don’t. My charge as to their elite and snobbish attitude is confirmed by their expectations of the taxpayers.
Rush said that Hubert Humphrey was basically a conservative based on listening to what he said from today’s vantage point.
More popular than any other form of music. It’s a comparison.
to be quite honest with ya, I’m not going to lose a moments sleep worrying whether or not the Minnesota Symphony folds or not.
I do not think it should get public funds.
Stand on your own or die.
Let's ask the rest of the question: Do these "musicians" want to play music, or do they want to get rich off their patrons' increasingly limited discretionary funds? The principal flautist at the MnO makes more than 90,000 a year. That's a nice wad of cash for someone who plays a flute. Now add to that the 100+ personnel associated with the orchestra and tell me how much you've got to charge per ticket to pay them.
Why is this being laid at management's door? These players have shown that to them, it's not about the music or the audiences, it's about the money.
The SPCO just went back to work with a pay cut of 15,000 per player. How'd THAT strike work out for 'em? Now the MnO is going to do the same thing? To hell with them. Let them starve.
“More popular than any other form of music. It’s a comparison.”
A comparison of what, what data?
In country (1), how many (a) ___________ music records sold , (b) radio stations playing _________ music, (c) TV shows featuring __________ music, (d) live venues of ______ music, (e) numbers of people ivolved in the production of ________ music; (f) (a) thru (e) repeated in countries (2), (3), etc. etc..
Cross the globe in tracking the answers and I have no doubt whatsoever that the data will show you are wrong.
Buffalo, for example, has had an arts scene all out of proportion to its current [shrinking] population. Those arts [of which liberal Buffalonians are very proud] have been supported for over a century by the money made by very wealthy industrialists at the turn of the last century when Buffalo was an economic powerhouse.
But the money's drying up and current subscriptions don't cover the costs anymore. You wouldn't be stupid for thinking that Buffalo's artists would be lobbying and voting for a better economy that might support them.
You wouldn't be stupid, but you'd be wrong.
Rush says that about JFK, also.
Makes no difference to me....a rose by any other name still has injurious thorns.
Conservative Democrat leaders further the socialist cause just by being Democrats and working for their party. I judge all Democrats by what they do, not what they say for public consumption.
Humphrey served five terms in the Senate. He was an ardent New Dealer. As Veep he was a fervent enabler of LBJ's Great Leap Forward, er....Great Society. During his career he was known as the leading "Progressive" (translated: liberal socialist Democrat hack) in American life.
Rush cherry-picks excerpts from old JFK and HHH speech tapes that make them both sound like conservatives.
No way, Jose.
Leni
“More popular than any other form of music. It’s a comparison.”
A comparison of what, what data?
In country (1), how many (a) ___________ music records sold , (b) radio stations playing _________ music, (c) TV shows featuring __________ music, (d) live venues of ______ music, (e) numbers of people ivolved in the production of ________ music; (f) (a) thru (e) repeated in countries (2), (3), etc. etc..
Cross the globe in tracking the answers and I have no doubt whatsoever that the data will show you are wrong.
You could run a nice space program for what the nation pays its city-funded, state-funded musicians.......
Maybe not the whole program, but a good portion of it.
As a taxpayer, I’d rather support symphony orchestras than the palaces of the TBN TV preacher hucksters, which is what we do now.
At that time, HHH also drove the commies out of the DFL. Now they’re baaaaaaaack. Also Pro-2A as to its original purpose.
Absolutely correct on that point as well!!
Mozart and Beethoven get performed worldwide more than any other single pop figure.
Jeremy Bentham is alive and well on FR!
Yes, Western classical music (including liturgical music) is studied and performed more than any other music, and for good reason. It is also the foundation of most pop music.
As someone indirectly involved in classical music (wife is an orchestral musician) I complete agree with you that it is nonsense that most of the musicians and management/boards are “elitists” snobs.
Most work way too hard for far too little because they are passionate about what they do, however rarely if ever would I call any that I have met snobs.
As to taxpayers and city orchestras, I think personally that’s up to the City to decide. If the city decides supporting it is a priority, they can do so as they like much like they do any other civic operation.
I think most people who espouse the snobbishness watch far too much TV and like characature rather than getting to know reality.
Those that call it overpriced, I think honestly don’t have an idea of the price. Yes you can spend 3 figures per ticket or more to see a world class symphony, but most have tickets available that are no more expensive that most other forms of entertainment available... let alone one that is live with over 60 musicians working together. My city which does have a permanent orchestra has tickets starting at $20 a ticket.. hardly breaking the bank.
As to pay, most classical musicians I know work WAY too hard for their money, those that are fortunate enough to be permanently salaried with a full time orchestra are very few and very far between. Most make Union minimals (if that, not all work is Union and thats a whole other can of worms) if they can even manage to get on staff for a part time orchestra at all. Most I now cobble together their income together from working pay for play with multiple smaller and secondary orchestras combined and may or may not teach.. usually charging no more than $20-25 an hour if that and driving all over gods creation to do so and most gross nominal amounts before they deduct all their expenses for doing so. Most have some other full time job to pay their bills and play on the side because they cannot scrape enough together to pay their living expenses as a classical musician.
Yes, there is no doubt that the best of the best can make a living being a classical musician with an orchestra, but the vast majority work way harder than I would for the pay they get.
As to the Union argument, I’ve seen non union work for musicians and seen them screwed over regularly, so I don’t bash the musicians union.
I will bash many non trade unions, but this isn’t one I will bash as the problem.
Thanks to leftist ideological and devicive politics the basic fundamental understanding that things like ART can only be supported when the basics are not only covered but also are throwing off enough excess wealth to support them is fundamentally forgotten by both sides of the political isle.
It is only through economic success that you can even have serious arts. IT is also important for those who argue the market uber alis mantra that it is important that when the excess is there, arts are important and should be supported.
Both sides promote fools errands on this topic more often than not thes days.
“Yes, Western classical music (including liturgical music) is studied and performed more than any other music, and for good reason.”
Your answer applies to academia - an elitist institution to start with and ignores that the majority of “popular” musicians were neither trained in or studied classical music.
Your answer does not apply to what are most popular forms of music that are “performed”, which is all forms of “popular” music, not “classical” music, which is a fact demonstrated by “most often performed, as in has the most live, telecast and recorded performances” associated with it. And classical music, as much as I too enjoy it, simply does not have more performances where it is performed compared to performances of “popular” music in its many forms.
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