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To: papertyger

Thanks for the explanation on the men’s rights part of your solution. Care to elaborate on the “women need to stop thinking they are victims” part?

2 problems I see with this solution:

[1] Those who are pro-life are already accused of only being concerned about the baby before birth. I’ve had people tell me if I haven’t personally adopted a baby, I have no right to be pro-life. [My response - if I’m not willing to personally stand at the border with a weapon, have I no right to be pro-border security?] This stance of promoting a man’s right to sign away his responsibilities for an unborn child only gives them more ammunition to accuse us of only caring about the unborn babies.

[2] I don’t think the pro-choice crowd would have as much objection to your solution as you think - certainly not enough to abandon their support of abortion rights. Liberals are quite capable of advocating contradictory opinions at the same time: abortion? it’s my body! TSA groping or Mengelecare? your body is the government’s! They would just transfer the baby-daddy’s responsibilities to the government, which furthers the liberal goal of having as many people dependent on government as possible.


38 posted on 02/03/2013 5:53:52 AM PST by TropicanaRose
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To: TropicanaRose; papertyger
They would just transfer the baby-daddy’s responsibilities to the government, which furthers the liberal goal of having as many people dependent on government as possible.

Great point. The "paper abortion" is a salve to the conscience of a man who would prefer not to be consciously aware of the link between sex and reproduction, and would rather the government take his children.

It bears repeating: a woman's ability to become pregnant and bear a child as the result of sexual activity is NOT a bug -- it's a FEATURE.

39 posted on 02/03/2013 1:54:26 PM PST by thecodont
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To: TropicanaRose
Care to elaborate on the “women need to stop thinking they are victims” part?

Sure. Even though pregnancy rates were much lower before easy abortion, women on both sides consistently frame the problem as what to do *with* crisis pregnancies: not *preventing* crisis pregnancies!

In what I can only think of as some sort of "projection," the emphasis is always on preserving the woman's "security" rather than bearing the responsibilities of "liberty." So it would seem both sides functionally "approve" the status quo, vis a vis promiscuity, they just disagree on what to do with resultant crisis pregnancy.

The universality of this mindset is reflected in the "soup kitchen" remedies that are invariably advocated by the pro life side, rather than calling for women to bear the responsibility forced on them from biology. Unfortunately, each "success" of such remedy only results in further taxing of the resources the pro life movement can bring to bear against abortion.

Furthermore, pro life women are notorious for conflating pregnancy and abortion with respect to the man's responsibility. Men are guilty of creating a crisis pregnancy, a guilt shared by women. They are NOT guilty of getting abortions: only women can do that.

This stance of promoting a man’s right to sign away his responsibilities for an unborn child only gives them more ammunition to accuse us of only caring about the unborn babies.

How?

To the contrary, the only ammunition it gives is an accusation of not caring about women, something they should be doing for themselves.

If women are functionally put back in the same jeopardy they were in before easy abortion, their willingness to engage in risky sex will go back to where it was before easy abortion.

I don’t think the pro-choice crowd would have as much objection to your solution as you think - certainly not enough to abandon their support of abortion rights.

That's the beauty of the solution: you're not touching their abortion rights. By giving the same right to men, you are taking away the "heads I win, tails you lose" dynamic that promotes flagrant promiscuity.

The only real objection I can see is the possibility that women with crisis pregnancies will just get more abortions, rather than just saying "no." I believe that is a hollow argument on par with Concealed Carry Permits promoting a "Wild West" mentality. They both trade on the idea that "other people" are stupid, and shouldn't be permitted to be responsible for their own actions.

Granted, having a crisis pregnancy in the first place does show a lack of judgement, but a woman considering risky behavior is going to look at a potential partner much differently if she knows she may well be the only one that has to deal with the consequences.

40 posted on 02/04/2013 12:44:58 PM PST by papertyger
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