Posted on 01/09/2013 11:12:23 AM PST by massmike
Baseball writers didn't elect Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens into the Hall of Fame on Wednesday, making an apparent statement on their suspected use of performance-enhancing drugs.
In fact, they failed to elect anyone, something that has only happened twice in the Hall's history.
Since 1965, the only years the writers didn't elect a candidate were when Yogi Berra topped the 1971 vote by appearing on 67 percent of the ballots cast and when Phil Niekro headed the 1996 ballot at 68 percent. Both were chosen the following years when they achieved the 75 percent necessary for election.
Also on the ballot for the first time were Sammy Sosa and Mike Piazza, power hitters whose statistics have been questioned because of the Steroids Era, and Craig Biggio, 20th on the career list with 3,060 hits — all for the Houston Astros. Curt Schilling, 11-2 with a 2.23 ERA in postseason play, was another ballot rookie.
Several holdovers from last year also were on the 37-player ballot, including Jack Morris (67 percent), Jeff Bagwell (56 percent), Lee Smith (51 percent) and Tim Raines (49 percent).
In advance of Wednesday's announcement, The Baseball Think Factory website compiled votes by writers who made their opinions public and with 159 ballots had everyone falling short of admission. Biggio was at 69 percent, followed by Morris (63), Bagwell (61), Raines (61), Piazza (60), Bonds (43) and Clemens (43).
(Excerpt) Read more at nbcsports.msnbc.com ...
I happen to agree with that. Makes it even sadder they threw their chances away by cheating. They didn't have to cheat to win, yet they cheated anyway. To me, that's unforgivable.
If you are trying for the murderer hall of fame, then yes. Clemens and Bonds are assholes and "cheated", but their records put them in the Hall, without question.
OJ is in the football HoF. I’ve seen Bonds murder baseballs. And Clemons’ fastball? That was murder, too. Put these guys in the HoF.
I’m sure someday it will happen. When 75% of the sportswriters realize rules are for saps.
OJ got away with the murders. That was the point you may have missed.
Biggio will get in soon, possibly next year. Certain writers believe that only the elite among the HOF deserve to make it on the first ballot. Several who left him off for that reason, will vote for him next year.
I agree on Piazza. I don’t think speculation alone should keep him out. In defense of the writers, I can understand them waiting a few years on guys like Piazza and Bagwell, just in case some real evidence or credibe allegations of PED use emerges.
Does objective mean any observer who agrees with you? I wouldn't vote for either Bonds or Clemens. Integrity is part of the process for admission into the hall of fame, and both of them took steroids and cheated. They wouldn't get my vote.
steroids were a fact of the game a decade ago
Yes, but not everyone took steroids. The players that took steroids cheated the other players. That's not fair, and it's not an excuse to say that a bunch of players were doing it. Doesn't matter.
Both had Hall-of-Fame career numbers before steroid use ever became part of the game.
I'm not so sure about that. There's never been a hint that Fred McGriff was on steroids, and he's not a HOFer (didn't even get close this year). So he's a pretty good baseline comparison. Let's assume that Bonds started taking steroids in 2000, the year in which his homers increased by 15 to a then career high 49 (the next year, he hit 73). So we're comparing McGriff to Bonds's career, 1986 through 2000.
Home Runs:
McGriff - 493
Bonds - 445
Batting Avg.
McGriff - .284 (including some crappy years at the end)
Bonds - .289
Slugging
McGriff - .509
Bonds - .567
RBIs
McGriff - 1550
Bonds - 1405
Doubles
McGriff - 441
Bonds - 451
Total Bases
McGriff - 4458
Bonds - 4228
Pretty similar. And McGriff got 20% of the vote this year. Where Bonds tends to dominate McGriff is on walks. But even in looking at singular dominant seasons, the two are pretty similar:
Prior to 2000, Bonds lead the league in home runs once (1993). McGriff did it twice (89, 92). Neither Bonds (pre-2000) or McGriff won the batting title. Bonds led the league in total bases once (1993), McGriff never got higher than third.
It's hard to say that pre-roid Bonds is a lock HOFer, especially given that McGriff is basically not even in the conversation. I will say that I think McGriff should be in the HOF, but McGriff is exactly the type of player that the steroid era has cheated. 493 home runs should have been a lock before steroids, but 500 home runs is considered a pretty pedestrian number these days, thanks to cheaters like Bonds, ARod, and Sammy Sosa.
>>>From my understanding, Bonds deserves to be in the Hall of Fame based on his pre-1999 record.
Everything I’ve heard indicates that Bonds did not start “bulking up” until 1999. I could be wrong, of course.
Bonds’ record through 1998 is truly great and easily HOF worthy. You could cut him off after 1995 and he would still be HOF worthy.<<<
So, if a man made $500 million dollars honestly, but then robbed orphans and widows to make his next $500 million, we should consider him a “Hall of Fame” businessman, and not hold the stealing against him? After all, he was already rich when he started stealing.
I think McGriff (but not Bonds) belongs in the HOF. I can’t believe that he doesn’t at least get 50 to 60% of the votes.
(2) For fifteen years, he said he never bet on a baseball game. Then he admitted he had been lying. Except we should of course believe him when he says he never bet against his team.
Yeah, right.
Should we throw out Gaylord Perry and the other spitballers?
BUMP!
Amen, brother. Preach it!
Put Pete Rose in the Hall of Fame!
Yes, Babe Ruth did play at a time when baseball was segregated. But for the record Babe Ruth did have some experience playing against some of the great black players of the era (not in a regulation game atmosphere obviously). Bill Jenkinson notes:
“The fact is that the Bambino had a rich and vibrant history of competition against the best black players of his era. He played often against Negro League All-Star across the United States and Cuba(1920) in fall barnstorming tours. In those games games, Ruth far exceeded his Major League statistics in batting average, slugging average, and home run percentage. . . . Negro luminary Buck O’Neil recalled the time that Ruth faced the legendary Satchel Paige sometime around 1938 in Chicago. Babe was about forty-three at the time and had already retired. Nonetheless, he launched a tremendous home run to center field in his first at-bat that left Paige speechless for perhaps the only time in his life. . . . Babe Ruth is known to have batted fifty-five times against the top black pitchers of his era. In those at-bats, he connected for twenty-five base hits and blasted twelve home runs. That works out to a batting average of over .400 and a slugging average of over .1000.”
This isn’t to denigrate those black players. The fact is Ruth would have excelled in any setting against any baseball players in any venue. Most people know of Ruth the legend. They know very little of the Ruth whose accomplishments created that legend. As a kid at St. Mary’s he would play as many as 200 hundred games a year. Few people know that his last home runn was a 500 footer, the first ball ever to clear the double decker grandstand at Forbes Field. He was 40 years of age! And he once hit a fungo 447’. There are many examples of his long ball hitting and despite what one would think no player in history comes close to his exploits.
While researching Ruth I came up with this:
Note the year 1921, 25 home runs in excess of 450 feet! Also check this video of a 500 footer in an exhibition game at Ruppert Stadium in Newark, NJ on April 7, 1935. Three days earlier he hit a 500 footer at Savannah, “a hit that was longer by far than any other drive in city history.” Regarding the video: “Three days later in Newark, Ruth smashed two homers, the second one (featured in video) being the longest ever at Ruppert Stadium. It cleared the fence in deep right center field (note spectators running up to see where the ball landed) by some 50 feet and landed outside the park about 500 feet from where it began.”
http://www.t3licensing.com/video/clip/3871900.do
Babe Ruth Home Runs in excess of 450’ and 500’ by year.
Year 500+ 450+
1915—0———1
1916—0———1
1917—0———1
1918—0———0
1919—3———9
1920—5-——17
1921—9-——25
1922—1———8
1923—1-——14
1924—5-——14
1925—2———4
1926—5-——13
1927—3-——20
1928—4-——14
1929—1-——14
1930—3-——15
1931—1———6
1932—0———8
1933—1———8
1934—1———5
1935—2———2
Quite simply Ruth was the greatest ever.
Just to be clear, I don’t think Rose was ever even accused of betting AGAINST his own team, only for it (which is bad enough). There is no reason at all to think he bet against the Reds.
So only saints should be allowed into the hall then? Are there no other cheaters, wife beaters, drunks, drug addicts, liars, sodomites, or thieves in the hall?
I’ve decided to agree with you. Rules are for saps. Would you like to buy a used car from me now?
The gambling rule is quite explicit, clear, and non-negotiable. Baseball employees that gamble on baseball, AT ALL, are banned for life. A copy of that rule is posted in every locker room and dugout, including the dugout from which Ruth placed bets using the dugout phone.
It’s not about being saints, it’s about not being a dumbass.
Ooops, Rose not Ruth, brain fart.
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