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Swordfighting: Not What You Think It Is (Medieval Swordfighting Much Different than in the Movies)
109.com ^ | June 12, 2012 | John Clements

Posted on 08/23/2012 9:52:00 PM PDT by PJ-Comix

To borrow a famous line, the problem with most people trying to understanding the true nature of historical sword combat is not that they're ignorant — it's just that they know so much that isn't so.

It's amazing, really, how a subject that so permeates our modern pop culture, and is so ubiquitous, is one which virtually no one any longer has any real world experience in, nor pursues for its original function. As a result, most all our conceptions of sword-fighting get it wrong. The reality of it is not what you think it is.

(Excerpt) Read more at io9.com ...


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KEYWORDS: swordfighting
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To: eclecticEel
My understanding is these things weren’t really all that sharp; it was more of a bludgeoning operation than a slicing one.

Not true. Swords were kept as sharp as their owner could make them. That would be like saying that modern soldiers don't clean their rifles.

81 posted on 08/24/2012 12:15:55 PM PDT by Ramius (Personally, I give us one chance in three. More tea anyone?)
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To: Jemian
I did not end any sentence in that post with a preposition. FWIW, “it” is a third-person, indefinite pronoun.

Precisely.

No one cares.

82 posted on 08/24/2012 12:19:20 PM PDT by IncPen (Educating Barack Obama has been the most expensive project in human history)
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To: piytar
... and I'm no blase master (which he clearly believes he is):

Actually in other articles, he's said repeatedly that there are no modern day "masters" and likely will never be. The true medieval and renaissance masters were men that lived a lifetime of actually fighting for their very lives against opponents who were trying to kill them. Since there is virtually no chance of such stakes becoming commonplace today, there can't truly be anyone who can present themselves as a "master".

83 posted on 08/24/2012 12:23:49 PM PDT by Ramius (Personally, I give us one chance in three. More tea anyone?)
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To: Timber Rattler
Well, considering that medieval broad swords (made of folded, carbonized steel) weighed between 10-15 pounds, sword fights didn't last very long before the opponents were worn out.

Not so. A typical broadsword (or longsword) weighed about 3 to 3.5 pounds. I have several. They are surprisingly nimble and quick.

Japanese sword-fighting on the other hand was a little more refined (but still bloody and vicious) because quite simply their swordmaking was superior and the blades much lighter.

I think this myth is just an artifact of the movies... Which show a modern and stylized sport form of their medieval arts. I think it gives short shrift to western swordcraft and metallurgy to suggest that it was necessarily inferior to japanese technology of the time.

84 posted on 08/24/2012 12:43:00 PM PDT by Ramius (Personally, I give us one chance in three. More tea anyone?)
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To: IncPen
If you teach writing and have awards for public speaking (?), please don't end sentences with prepositions.

While I agree with you in principle, a Grammar Nazi should really learn what a preposition is before claiming someone ended a sentence with one! :)

As an aside, the poster you are referring to DID deserve a dressing down for being an elitist, but you make yourself look dumb by making demonstrably false accusations.

85 posted on 08/24/2012 12:50:22 PM PDT by America_Right (Remember, Republicans have a lot more in common with Democrats than they do with Tea Partiers.)
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To: SMARTY
Sounds fascinating.

I'll have to see if I can find that book. I appreciate your notes.

Warmest regards!

86 posted on 08/24/2012 1:17:39 PM PDT by Northern Yankee (Where Liberty dwells, there is my Country. - Benjamin Franklin)
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To: Northern Yankee

My version was a paperback that I got on line.

I read and re read it because it is so well written and interesting.

There are copious foot notes and they are as interesting and information as the text, if not more so.

He was a real scholar, courageous explorer and also an linguist. Burton was so interesting and I think a real eccentric person. His wife (crazy woman) burned much of his work after he died and so things were lost.

See if you can’t get his bio because it is worth reading, too.


87 posted on 08/24/2012 1:23:18 PM PDT by SMARTY ("The man who has no inner-life is a slave to his surroundings. "Henri Frederic Amiel)
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To: Snickering Hound

Representative Akins’ first appearance in film....


88 posted on 08/24/2012 1:32:34 PM PDT by Bruce Campbells Chin
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To: Bruce Campbells Chin

http://www.amazon.com/The-Archaeology-Weapons-Prehistory-Chivalry/dp/0486292886

This book by Ewart Oakeshott is to me a fascinating look at
weapons from the stone age up to the Renaissance.

Also keep in mind that most warriors wouldn’t be using their swords to block another blade unless they had to. That will ruin a sword.


89 posted on 08/24/2012 3:37:05 PM PDT by Mmogamer (I refudiate the lamestream media, leftists and their prevaricutions.)
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To: Ramius

Thank you.


90 posted on 08/24/2012 5:14:40 PM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: America_Right
While I agree with you in principle, a Grammar Nazi should really learn what a preposition is before claiming someone ended a sentence with one! :)

As an aside, the poster you are referring to DID deserve a dressing down for being an elitist, but you make yourself look dumb by making demonstrably false accusations.

You obviously missed the joke.

Larger point: no one cares.

91 posted on 08/24/2012 6:38:35 PM PDT by IncPen (Educating Barack Obama has been the most expensive project in human history)
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To: Timber Rattler

Soooo many misconceptions in the comments here, it is hard to know where to begin. Perhaps the first place is to warn people not to take what in in any movie as fact. For example, Braveheart’s depiction of the Battle of Sterling Bridge without a bridge, and Sir William Wallace in a kilt...

Medieval swords were NOT heavy, being actually comparable in weight to the Japanese blades. After all, steel is steel... it doesn’t weigh more in Europe. They were sharp. You can block with them, you must know how to do so.

The Norse had similar pattern welded steel methods to the Japanese, as well. They produced “damascus” steel (the steel which appears to have waves and swirls in it). It is made by forging two different carbon steels together, with twists and folds.

Armor is easy to move in. Its weight is well distributed around the body. You can easily climb onto a horse, or even be able to cartwheel in properly made and fitted gear. Jousting armor was specialized.

Fighting was NOT battering into submission and bleeding out. It was very sophisticated, and involved pointwork, edgework, halfswording, wrestling with joint breaks, etc. Attacks are typically to the joints. There were various schools of swordplay throughout Europe. For a good overview, I suggest Dr. Sydney Anglo’s “The Martial Arts of Renaissance Europe”.

The Western Martial Arts (WMA) are enjoying a revival right now, and much is being learned from original source manuals. There is a lot of reconstruction going on, and there are several groups working on various aspects. Mr. Clements’ group is one of these. He generally knows his stuff. He also has the reputation for being an self-promoting egotist and convinced utterly of his version of things. Caveat emptor.


92 posted on 09/05/2012 11:10:24 AM PDT by LexBaird (Tyrannosaurus Lex, unapologetic carnivore)
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To: LexBaird

Thanks for your comments. You’re spot on point.


93 posted on 09/05/2012 11:21:03 AM PDT by Ramius (Personally, I give us one chance in three. More tea anyone?)
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To: Tallguy

Relax, historians. This is another John Clement article. He’s a well known “character” in hoplogical circles. Nobody of serious study gives him much regard. He got his start when the early public use of the internet (mid 90s) resulted in a sudden proliferation (by people like William Wilson and Patri Pugliese) of old texts which, while known among scholars, were just being discovered by Highlander fandom. He got out in front of his particular crowd and declared himself the leader of movement of which he was not even a member. He proclaimed himself to be a true and proper swordsman and weaponsmaster and THEN cracked the books. Being studied in neither the language nor histories of the nations from his source material comes, he is as qualified to interpret a Talhoffer book as Joseph Smith was to interpret hieroglyphs — and they are mostly illustrations (Talhoffer, that is).


94 posted on 09/05/2012 12:15:57 PM PDT by Brass Lamp
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