136th Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show (2012) - 2nd night

WestminsterKennelClub ^ | Feb. 14, 2012

[nuconvert]

This is the 2nd & final night, culminating in Best in Show.

Tuesday, February 14 - 8-11 p.m. (ET) live on USA Network

Groups:

Sporting, Working and Terrier Groups

Best In Show

[afraidfortherepublic]

Petco!

[hoosiermama]

A Beautiful DOG.

[Darnright]

>I was partial to the Golden which is always a losing proposition. When you think about how many other Goldens the one in the center ring has beaten to get there you have to wonder why they never get chosen?<

Goldens aren’t my breed. I have pinged the FR Golden go-to (LOL) to my Post. Bryt, can you shed some light? I will say that even though a breed might not get into the group placements, competition within its breed at the Garden is still important to those who specialize in a given breed.

[Darnright]

>Petco!<

Poor dog. I know the trainers at those places are not always experienced before they're hired. They're sent to corporate dog trainer school (learning to teach dog training well typically takes years of experience) and they only know how to "teach" by rote. Some of the ones I've seen in action are atrociously inept. I'm not sure what qualifications one needs to be hired as a groomer.

[afraidfortherepublic]

I know that Goldens vary quite a bit from individual to individual. A few years back, there was quite an effort to breed them down in size. Personally, I like the big ones. There is a local kennel here whose Goldens all look like their legs have been chopped short, and they all have very thick, very abundant, very blond fur. Honey Lane is their name. I can spot a oney Lane dog walking down the street.

My Golden was a rescue, on the tall side, red flat coat, does not shed as much as my previous curly coated Golden did. Those are just the obvious differences. I’m sure that the judges are also looking for bone structure, etc. — all those traits that we cannot see readily.

But, with the number of Goldens that are registered and the number that compete in shows, you’d think that at least a few would get to the BIS ring. But, they never seem to. I used to watch the dog shows on Animal Planet every Sat. morning. (They don’t seem to be on anymore.) The Golden you see in the Group ring has defeated probably at least a couple of hundred other dogs to get there. But, somehow he is NEVER judged worthy to continue to BIS.

Other breeds seem always to be in the BIS ring — poodles, for example. I’ve seen shows where there are 2 poodles in BIS — a toy and a standard, both black! And I’ve seen those ugly Pekes win more than I’d like. They say that it has been a while that a Peke has won at the Westminster, but they’ve won the Eukanuba in recent years.

My brother in law used to handle and show professionally, but he is no longer with us so that I can ask these questions. I suspect that the judging is highly political, however.

[brytlea]

Oh, the golden world buzzes about it, hopes, complains, and then, they never do win. If you look at the stats terriers seem to have the advantage at 45 wins, altho sporting comes in second (at 19) but those seem to be mostly spaniels.
Some people say the quality in goldens is not there, but that’s hard to defend when it really IS difficult to get a CH on one these days, with the numbers as they are. When I started in goldens in the 1980s people really did bring their pets to the shows to show. I don’t see that anymore. The competition is always keen and I have had nice dogs who don’t finish.
All I can say is, it’s just a combination of the judges they choose and the dogs that are there. BTW labs have never won BIS either. And, while its quite an honor (I wouldn’t mind having a dog win, heck, winning the breed there would be a thrill) it is just one show. You don’t win money (bad thing about dog shows, it’s all outgo, no income) and after a pretty short while, you are yesterdays news and it’s on to the next thing. And you still have to scoop poo. :)
Sorry I couldn’t be more enlightening. But to be honest, we all wonder about it.

[Darnright]

>Other breeds seem always to be in the BIS ring — poodles, for example. I’ve seen shows where there are 2 poodles in BIS — a toy and a standard, both black!<

There was a recent story in Slate titled, “How To Win the Westminster Dog Show”
“Step 1: Find a poodle. Step 2: Get a big-money backer.”

I am not posting a link because if memory serves we can’t post their links(?) You can search for it though.

In order to become #1 in your breed, you have to defeat more dogs than your opponents. This takes being at shows every weekend. So, you need money, lots and lots of it.

Dog shows are unique in that there are many levels on which one can compete. It depends on how deep your pockets go and if you can either breed or purchase a dog that exceeds the others of its breed in quality. Sometimes, a dog is not for sale to anyone but those with the right connections and experience in the sport. The very top handlers have an enormous advantage over me, for example, because they have their pick of the dogs with top show potential.

I either have to breed a very good dog, or depend on my contacts in a few breeds (I was just offered a pup I’m having a blast with - she’ll get her championship easily. We’ll see about her ability to compete at breed level at a later date). I can’t go all over the country after breed points, so I am content to exhibit at relatively local shows.

[brytlea]

Yeah, there's not a thing involving people without politics, is there. Whenever I win I'm sure there were no politics involved! LOL Of course, most of the people showing at that level all know each other because the show world (as you may know since your brother in law was a handler) is like a little town that travels around. That's what always struck me, I would walk into a show site and for the most part, it was the same people (with a few others thrown in) every weekend. If I didn't show for awhile I might see a crop of new faces, but still, the same old regulars would be there. And most of the judges came up from the ranks as handlers, the rest were breeders, and so they do all know each other.

That doesn't mean I don't think they are judging the dogs, it just means it's easy to call politics. And who knows. They DO know each other. But I've beaten people who are known and I'm no one. So, it's not always political.

As for goldens, there's a written standard, but it's open to interpretation. A lot of what you see out there does not fit the standard, so it's possible that when you see a dog that does they look odd to your, OR it's possible that the dogs you were seeing WERE short on leg. I've seen that. A golden should not be very large, however, as they are hunting and water dogs, and they should be able to work tirelessly AND you don't want to lift a 100 lb wet dog into a boat. I cringe when people tell me about the 100 lb goldens they breed. The standard calls for a male to be 23 to 24 inches (at the withers) females 21 1/2 to 22 1/2. My girls generally are about 55 lbs, I think boys about 70 or 75, but I have not lived with a boy in a long time.

This is Pauli, she is currently the only one living with me, altho her sister will be back with me after this summer. Obviously not a show picture, she's just a very expensive, spoiled pet who never went to Westminster.

[brytlea]

I never cared about traveling everywhere to show, I stayed for the most part in TX/NM/OK. Occasionally other places, esp for something like the Golden National which is just a big fun party and a chance to see golden people and dogs from all over. But to me it was and is first and foremost a HOBBY. I mean I take the learning part seriously and take breeding and the dogs seriously, but the rest of it? Nope. I wouldn’t lose a friend (or a marriage!) over it. I used to joke tho (and it’s hardly a joke really) that if you get into showing dogs, it’s like someone puts a vacuum cleaner hose into your pocket and turns it on, be prepared. I never went into debt over it, but I knew LOTS of people who did. And lots marriages, etc. Very sad.
But it can be great fun and family fun too, if the kids are interested. Mine never were, altho they would come and help me at shows because they were good kids. I would have been in Heaven if someone had dragged me to dog shows when I was a kid.

[Darnright]

>This is Pauli, she is currently the only one living with me, altho her sister will be back with me after this summer. Obviously not a show picture, she’s just a very expensive, spoiled pet who never went to Westminster.<

From the description of a Golden’s purpose, my money would be on her to fulfill her job far more easily than would the BOB at the Garden this year. She’s a lovely girl to boot.

[brytlea]

Well thank you. She’s an awesome girl, finished a couple of years ago, said she wanted to be a couch potato and has not been able to get pregnant (I think it’s on purpose, she is totally lazy). Her goal in life is to catch and dismantle lizards. I keep threatening to start obedience or rally with her, and then something always happens and we have to put it off. We both have a few years left.
When Arielle comes back (her half sister) we may possibly work on her Grand, but, I’m not convinced that’s a good idea.
What breed do you have?

[Darnright]

>Nope. I wouldn’t lose a friend (or a marriage!) over it. I used to joke tho (and it’s hardly a joke really) that if you get into showing dogs, it’s like someone puts a vacuum cleaner hose into your pocket and turns it on, be prepared. I never went into debt over it, but I knew LOTS of people who did. And lots marriages, etc. Very sad.<

The most important thing I was ever, ever taught by my childhood/teen years mentor was the risk into which you put yourself by campaigning a dog if the economy suddenly goes south while you are doing so. She may have had “the breeders’ dream” but the price she ultimately paid left her living hand to mouth the rest of her life when she should have been at least comfortable. God rest her soul.

She didn’t teach this on purpose, obviously, but I’ve tried to pass the lesson on whenever the opportunity presents. I scaled back to the bone when the stock market dove - I’ve not bred a litter in years and my dogs are mostly dead or ancient. I will not go into debt to show this pup and if we don’t have a major change in Nov, the shows I attend will be few and far between.

[brytlea]

Yup, same attitude as me. I know it frustrates a lot of my dog show friends, they don’t understand, but there things more important. Sad about your mentor.
I think the people who can afford to pour money in usually end up doing something that makes them money, like run a boarding kennel or professional handler, and some of them still end up going broke. Most of the folks I know who got into dogs when I did are no longer in it. I think they used to say the average was 5 years.

[Darnright]

I began with Keeshonden but my last one died in ‘86. I got the first of my Papillons in the early ‘80’s and still have a couple of retired champions. I’ve got the one GSD and a breeder friend of mine gave me an Elkhound pup to show. Ok, not exactly a Keeshond, but what a showy, promising girl she is. After she finishes, he will breed her, not me. My puppy days are over. I’ve bred/owned a respectable number of champions and a handful of obedience/rally/agility titleholders. One of the dogs I bred ended up as a multi-BIS winner, plus he sired close to 20 champions for his owners.

[brytlea]

I keep being drawn to Paps, they seem like big dogs in little dog suits. Eventually if I end up with a small breed in my old age, they are one of only a tiny fraction of small dogs I will consider. They are smart AND cute.
We had a GSD when I was a kid, a great dog, but no show dog by any means. I need a far mellower personality. But I loved the one we had, very loyal, very good with us (but not so great with neighbor kids as I recall, we had to watch her, she was prone to mistake rough play for harm to us).

I started out with just hunting dogs, but you know how it is one thing leads to another. Somewhere along the way we ended up also with a Spinone as well, and worked getting them recognized (not something I think I would get involved in again, THAT was not a pleasant experience). I never finished one of those as mine were all older by the time they were recognized and the one I pointed after recognition got pyo and had to be spayed. Then we moved here and have the stupid 2 dog limit which has cut me back.
I have a friend in TX who whelps our golden litters at the moment, but honestly, I do less and less. I keep up with my friends and sometimes get a puppy here to socialize but between our Palm Beach County breeder law and the 2 dog limit, it’s just really difficult. Frankly, I would like another spinone, and probably if things change that’s what I’ll get. I hate not having one around.
Anyway, I would have to say I’ve mostly dabbled in field (hunt tests not trials!) obedience (trained only thru open, lacked one leg on my old girl) and then conformation. I’ve only bred 5 Champions (all goldens), but I don’t breed a lot of litters and never kept a stud dog. Pauli was brought home pretty much as soon as she finished, Arielle did stay out a little and was a Best in Specialty winner. We probably should have kept her out for Hall of Fame but neither my co-owner or I wanted to spend the money especially on a bitch. She’s produced some nice puppies and is also a sweet housedog. So, I’m happy enough.

[afraidfortherepublic]

Well, I opined to Joe 6 Pack one day that I fantasize about the day when some of these judges approach the Pearly Gates.

Instead of St. Peter, the greeting committee will be a phalanx of Golden Retrievers, a few Labs, and a couple of Dachsunds where they’ll be stopped and examined while the dogs discuss whether the judge has a straight back, is overweight, is light on his/her feet, has a slim waist, and is lively. If the judge passes the dog committee, he/she proceeds to St. Peter’s station where the content of his/her character is examined. But those dog show judges have to be approved by the dogs FIRST!

Do you approve my plan?

[brytlea]

The judges I have known have loved dogs. I’m not sure why people find judging dogs distasteful (and you are not alone). It’s simply (in theory if not always in practice) a way of deciding which ones most fit a written standard designed (again in theory if not in practice) to create the best dog to do whatever the breed is supposed to do. MOST dog people love dogs, and you will usually find that they are also involved in rescue of some sort in addition to their other pursuits. And the judges started out as breeders and/or handlers. Many of them are quite interesting and even fun.
You might be surprised to know that many of the judges are regular people with regular *day jobs* and just judge on the side. Being on show committees thru the years most of the ones I’ve dealt with were nice, a few were jerks, and most took their task seriously. In the ring I only had a couple who I really felt didn’t give me my money’s worth (that is I felt that they never looked at my dog so that I didn’t feel I even had a chance).
So, I think most of the judges would do pretty well under your plan. They’re dog people, after all. :)

[brytlea]

Oh, I have to say, I know zip about pekes, but here is my grand dog, Lucy

[afraidfortherepublic]

Cute dog. Is that a Peke in a “normal” (not a show) clip? You can see, and appreciate, his little face. By comparison, Malachy just looks repulsive; and I am not alone in my opinion.

[brytlea]

I think they groom her themselves, so it’s just a buzz cut, totally just to clean her up and make her comfy. I have no idea what her pedigree is, she’s just their baby (and has a much sweeter temperament than I think of when I think of the breed).
I know so little about Pekes I’m not going to give an opinion on Malachy. I know people who think show goldens are simply awful. I will say that many breeds have changed over time, for the good or for the bad is a matter of opinion and often a matter of hot debate, even among breeders. People tend to exaggerate what wins. Bulldogs are a good example. The toy breeds don’t have a particular function like hunting so I think their more prone to exaggeration. Just my opinion. And you knew I had one... :)