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Hmmm... Me thinks -- as MHGinTN has pointed out re: a # of other former FREEPER (Lds) posters...that you're either... ...dissimilating... ...or somehow missed a few seminary and Sunday School classes in your supposed "steeped" Mormonism. What do I mean? (Keep reading) In light of what you said above, do you wish to "explain" the plain meaning of what's charted below? [Seems to me you only conceded the D&C 1:30 row below...and totally avoided dealing with the other obvious refs] Or will you do the "typical" Mormon FREEPER thing...which is to make either a baseless or false claim, and then we never hear you address that subject again on this or any future thread? (Unless you, of course, just go around intentionally dissimilating on various threads).

I would be happy to have a civil discourse on all of this. Not sure that is possible here, but I will address a bit of your post.

First of all, your insult is noted. No I am not dissembling, and most consider me pretty well informed about the gospel of Jesus Christ and Church history. So if you wish to have a civil discussion devoid of insults and ad hominem attacks, I will post a few reasoned comments to see how you and the others here respond.

I started my comments on this thread to be helpful and reasonable and will attempt to continue in that vein.

First, I note in passing that the title of the quotes in your post is a bit over the top, basically "pot calling the kettle black" hyperbole designed to get people riled up. A fair analysis of press stories from that era would prove quite the opposite of what your title implies. But that isn't the substance of my response, only an observation.

Second, the first three quotes you cite are the words of the Savior to the young prophet. If you read the first two quotes carefully, you will note that the comments were focused on the Creeds and the professors or ministers, not on those who belonged to the churches of the day.

If you know anything about history, you will know that the Creeds originated with Constantine, a fairly notoriously wicked emperor. At the time, the remaining elements of the Christian Church were trying to resolve key disagreements. Emperor Constantine brought them together, pushed for his views and then destroyed all records of the perspective that lost, and sought to kill or banish those that pushed for those views. Not exactly a scriptural way to seek the will of God. Moreover, many internecine fights among religions continued down through the Middle Ages to the time of Joseph Smith. And they continue today, as you must realize.

As for the claims of the "true and living" Church, I believe you will find that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only religion today that claims that Jesus came back to earth to start it, and sent heavenly messengers to bring back Priesthood power that had been lost. You are free to disagree, and even make fun of such claims. You would certainly be in company with many in the media and show business.

Nevertheless, you will look long and hard to find any condemnation of members of any other faiths, either in the historical record or in current talks and essays by current General Authorities. In fact, the 11th Article of Faith stipulates "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may." That is exactly what I was suggesting in my prior post.

Next, the quote of Joseph you cite I have always taken to be somewhat mirthful, full of truth --- and humor, but requiring a fuller understanding of what was behind the statement. The word "damn" means the stopping of progress. It is quite clear from scripture that without duly authorized Priesthood ordinances, all of us are stopped from eternal progress. What Joseph Smith restored to the world was the means by which all who have lived on the earth can receive the necessary ordinances, if they so choose. Again, you are free to mock, but the scope of concern within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the effort of its leaders and members for the people of all faiths and of all times in the earth history, for which records still exist, cannot be denied. Most members of The Church have spent hours researching records of ancestors, and additional time and sacrifice performing proxy ordinances. Such efforts are are labors of love for people of all faiths. At root of these practices is the heartfelt belief that our Father in Heaven loves ALL of His children, of all faiths, and wants all to have the same opportunity to return to Him, whether or not they died as a child, or lived in times and places without the gospel of Jesus Christ. Nothing could be more fair and loving.

Finally, your quote about the apostasy is a bit dated but is completely consistent with Peter's prophecy about a "falling away" in 2 Thessalonians 2. And Peter's prophecy about a "restitution of all things" might just be referring to the establishment of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to bring back what was lost in anticipation of the Lord's Second Coming.

Again, mock and flame if you will. In the meantime, if you or any readers want to continue a reasoned discussion, let me know.

Kind regards...
Luke (my handle when I flew USAF F-4s to protect your freedoms)

What Joseph Smith restored to the world................

For a well spoken guy...you are totally duped. You aren't the first, nor the last...I'm afraid.

I will ask again...were you born a mormon...or converted?

The word "damn" means the stopping of progress.

"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned;

and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given,

and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned.

Brigham Young - JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)

I just LOVE how MORMON quotes have to be 'explained'!

You are free to disagree, and even make fun of such claims.

And, even post Biblical scripture and MORMON writings; too.

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,

' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'

If you read the first two quotes carefully, you will note that the comments were focused on the Creeds and the professors or ministers, not on those who belonged to the churches of the day.

Modern reconstructionism of mormon apologetic doesn't grant you that latitude. The use of the term "professors" in that era does not mean "ministers" - it means those who "profess" that faith - the people themselves. Your little twist is not in accord with the historical teachings of your apostles and prophets in that regard.

f you know anything about history, you will know that the Creeds originated with Constantine,

Well, one thing is clear, you don't know your history. There are many 'creeds' that predate Constantine, some of which are even recorded in the NT.

Moreover, many internecine fights among religions continued down through the Middle Ages to the time of Joseph Smith. And they continue today, as you must realize.

And that is not exclusive of mormonism either. Brigham Young notoriously persecuted and killed splinter groups. Mormons murdered innocent emigrants passing through Utah. Smith developed the danites to go after dissenters. Even today, those who believe in the bom, smith as a prophet and a living prophet are vehemently denounced.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only religion today that claims that Jesus came back to earth to start it, . . .

Uh, history challenged eh. Jesus began his church in the first century. Secondly, you fail to provide substantial evidence that Jesus really visited Smith - in fact smith himself cannot even get his story straight on the subject.

What Joseph Smith restored to the world was the means by which all who have lived on the earth can receive the necessary ordinances, if they so choose.

Can't restore falsehoods Luke. Those 'ordinances' never existed to begin with - only in the fanciful notions of smith

....sent heavenly messengers to bring back Priesthood power that had been lost.

They never existed to begin with Luke. All we have is the 'word' of a convicted swindler and occultist.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the effort of its leaders and members for the people of all faiths and of all times in the earth history, for which records still exist, cannot be denied.

All times? only since 1830. Bogus necrodunking can easily be denied.

Nevertheless, you will look long and hard to find any condemnation of members of any other faiths, either in the historical record or in current talks and essays by current General Authorities.

Oh shooting ducks in a barrel.

"...all the priests who adhere to the sectarian religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels."
- Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr. , The Elders Journal, v. 1, no. 4, p. 60

"Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century."
- Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, v. 6, p. 167 (Hmmmmm and mormons want to be know as Christians?)

"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the ‘whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent."
- Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 255

“Believers in the doctrines of modern Christendom will reap damnation to their souls.”
- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, see pp. 45-46

So much for NEVER condemning members of other faiths.